Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1685287
You miss my point! When such eminent and knowledgeable people such as Irv and Balliol have * uncertainties, and the CAA doesn't even know what their own rules mean, what chance does the poor sucker of a Pilot stand?

* Other Forumites have in-depth knowledge as well! (including "cookie" currently wearing his invisibility -cloak! :D
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1685310
There are no 'poor sucker pilots', only some who do not exercise their ELP by looking up the regs and instead prefer to consult others. Fortunately for them, there are many willing and able to help out.

To suggest that the CAA does not even know its own rules because someone on here was once given the wrong information is nonsense.
AlanC, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By ChrisRowland
#1685322
low&slow wrote:I think I can get 4 out of 5 on this.

1) Your NPPL & LAPL don't need revalidating, only the SLMG rating is revalidated
2) There's no requirement to send a form to the CAA after revalidating an NPPL rating
3) You mean an instructor's signature, not just an entry in the logbook
4) Your LAPL doesn't have a TMG class rating, it has TMG privileges
5) An instructor hour by itself does not meet the recency requirements, you also need to meet the PIC requirements - each & every day you fly as PIC. The instructor's signature does not "revalidate" your LAPL for the next 2 years.

Load of pompous nit picking from a couple of arrogant self appointed license police, intent on selling totally unneccessary 'support' and gold plating the requirements.
By ak7274
#1685513
Another one today with a license endorsed. Not even to the end of the month.
After explaining the requirements to the Pilot he was extremely happy that I explained things to him. Thanks for the flow chart Dave.
By MachFlyer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1685532
As a student now taking lessons for a LAPL this thread has confused me (I know I should perhaps stick with the student forum). I thought the LAPL was quite straight forward?

To remain current Is it not 12 hours PIC including 12 T/O & landings in 24 months and one hour of training with an instructor which is signed off in your logbook or is there something else you need to do?
riverrock, JAFO, Weirdjam liked this
User avatar
By nickwilcock
#1685567
AMC1 FCL.050 (i)(10)(iv) states the requirement for the logbook remarks section to include:
(iv) signature of instructor if flight is part of an SEP or TMG class rating revalidation.


However, it does not state that this is required for LAPL refresher flights with an instructor. Probably another EASA error - but does it really upset people to have this signature?
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1685614
How do you know - because you do not have to know - in advance/when you do it, whether a particular flight is part of your SEP/TMG Revalidation by Experience?

The reason this is potentially relevant is two-fold:

1. It is poorly drafted. (Instructors do not always have to sign the logbook. I know they typically do - partly no doubt to protect against this issue - but that's not the detail point. If EASA intend them to sign to cover every flight, then the rules should say so. They explicitly do not).

2. There is a particular risk here, that potentially costs pilots money, and I very nearly fell foul of it some years ago as I have said on here before, which is why I have a bee in my bonnet about it. On that occasion, I was coming to the end of my 2 year Revalidation period, had over 80 hours in the second year and had flown 5+ hours with an EASA instructor training on new aircraft types and some aerobatic refreshers. I knew I needed to have an hour with an instructor in my logbook, but that was fine - I had over 5 hours dual logged, didn't I?

But no: The Examiner declined to sign my Cert of Reval due to the lack of an instructor signature for any of those flights. Reminder: There is nothing in the regs that insists that they should have been signed at the time for any of those flights.

Worse for me was that, due to work, I had approached the Examiner within a couple of days of the Expiry date.

Worse than that was that the Instructors in question were not local, and one that normally was around was at this point out of the country. So no hope of a retrospective instructors signature.

Even worse than that, the (unnecessary) expense of another 1 hour with an instructor was unavailable due to an extended spell of unflyable weather, forecast to continue beyond the Expiry date.

So I was now facing the requirement for the (unnecessary) expense and hassle of a Revalidation by Test.

That is why I get annoyed by it. People ask "What's the problem?" Well, there's an example for you.

We say we want to get rid of red tape, gold-plating and locally made up rules yet this (minor but irritating and potentially expensive) example frequently gets shrugged off.

I had done nothing wrong, but potentially was facing a 3 figure sum and significant hassle (work meant I was not very flexible for training/test) for no reason.

My logbook PIC hours were accepted on the nod (always are); what's so special about my PUT hours? Even if I had a PUT signature nobody would know if my PIC entries were accurate. It is inconsistent logic.

The general point of this moan is:

If the Rules are the Rules (which they are), then apply them as written, write them unambiguously, and write them with the eye on safety not bureaucracy. That is what a Regulator is there to do, after all, isn't it?
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By Dodo
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1685691
I will probably let my IR(r) and MEP ratings lapse soon, and had seriously considered downgrading to a LAPL, but remain bemused by this problem.

The valdity rules say rules say.. from https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviation/Pilot-licences/EASA-requirements/LAPL/LAPL-(A)-requirements/

The privileges of your licence will only remain valid if you have completed, in the last 24 months, as pilot of an aeroplane or TMG:

At least 12 hours flight time as PIC, including 12 take-offs and landings; and
Refresher training of at least 1 hour of total flight time with an instructor.
If you do not meet these requirements you will need to:

Complete a proficiency check with an examiner before you exercise the privileges of the licence; or
Complete the additional flight time or take-offs and landings to meet the requirements above, flying dual or solo, under the supervision of an instructor.


So , imagine this scenario.

A LAPL holder has only flown 2 hours in the last 24 months and chooses to complete a proficiency test with an examiner. He does this successfully in a flight that lasts 40 minutes, (which for the sake of argument involves 3 circuits to cover the 90 day passenger carrying rule). This is presumably logged as P1 (under supervision). He then wants to go flying the next day.

He has still only flown 2 hours 40 minutes in the last 24 months. Is his licence valid? If so, for how long does the proficiency test reset the clock? If not what does he have to do?
User avatar
By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1685700
Complete a proficiency check with an examiner before you exercise the privileges of the licence


Prof check with Examiner resets the whole lot and resets the clock for 24 months.

The 'problem' is that there are many roads that lead to Rome, that confuses some people.

Similarly to the various options on the medical front.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1685719
Dodo wrote:Thanks Frank.That seems entirely logical. Can you tell me where that is shown in the regulations.


It's in the section you quoted (my bold) :


Complete a proficiency check with an examiner before you exercise the privileges of the licence; or
Complete the additional flight time or take-offs and landings to meet the requirements above, flying dual or solo, under the supervision of an instructor.


So if you take a proficiency check with an examiner OR make up the hours under instructor supervision you are good to go.
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