Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1672523
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
Lockhaven wrote:
Hopefully there are few individuals having a few sleepless nights at the moment waiting for a phone call or door bell to ring, because one thing is for sure this **** storm is going to create waves and I really hope those responsible for flights such as these end up doing some jail time.

The whole world of dodgy aircraft charters using aircraft with suspect airworthiness, flags of convenience, pilots without the required licences experience or qualifications needs bringing to an end, and its about time the UK CAA realised this, got of their comfy chairs in the Belgrano and started doing some work to stop it.

The 'Wingly' website would be my first port of call, I would start trying to book a few flights to see what comes up and then paying a few of those individuals a visit.


I agree with all you have written, apart from the last paragraph.

Wingly is not my cup of tea - but to suggest they or similar are the cause of this problem.

Illegal (nothing grey about this in my books) is as old as the road to Rome, and we all know that.

Starting with Wingly et al would not do anything about the likes of what has happened here.


I am not suggesting 'Wingly' are the root cause but its definitely one of those areas that requires investigating deeper by the CAA and not just ignoring because the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the aircraft so everything will be fine.

I just quickly setup a 'Wingly' account as a passenger and can now get a round trip flight from the north of England to Jersey plus night stop with a 110 hour PPL for around £250 per person based on 3 passengers flying in a PA28, he/she even offers collection from other airports, FFS and you are trying to tell me thats safe and legal.

And that is advertised it took me approx. 3 minutes.
AlanM, Iceman liked this
#1672528
That definitely does not look pukka.

If asked you for the name and some contacts who could fly me somewhere in something a bit bigger there would be some suggestions pretty soon I am pretty sure - not out in the open of course.

Illegal charter has been going on for ages.

The powers that are have not had the person power/appetite to sort it.

IIRC the CAA enforcement team consists of a number smaller than the amount of fingers of my hand.
Nick liked this
By Pudnucker
#1672532
I note that Nantes are starting legal proceedings for their first £5m payment.. I really think that there will be far reaching implications - I just hope they don’t affect us sensible and law abiding pilots.

I just read that article posted above about the 15’000 hour pilot who crashed at Barton. Hope they do (or did) throw the book at him. D1ck.
AlanM liked this
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1672533
SteveC wrote:It should be quite simple. Anything other than your lunch being bought is commercial transport and requires an AOC. .


That's a bit extreme, and would be a pretty effective way of undermining the future of recreational aviation in my opinion. I agree flying strangers via wingly is wrong, but I see no problem whatsoever with a mate contributing half the fuel costs if we fly off for the day.
Nick, flybymike, Katamarino liked this
User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1672537
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:That definitely does not look pukka.


And that is my point, there so much illegal charter going on in the UK now the CAA are almost powerless.

Oh hang on, no, the CAA go straight after the law abiding AOC holder who is paying a small fortune to be regulated by the CAA because someone forgot to tick a box or went over their duty hours by 5 minutes, thats easy work and easy money for them. :roll:
AndyR, cockney steve liked this
User avatar
By G-BLEW
#1672541
Miscellaneous wrote:
G-BLEW wrote:Yup, and I don't think people taking advantage on Wingly or elsewhere should be tolerated.

I'd suggest your tolerance should therefore run thin with Wingly itself!


How so?

Ian
User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1672543
flyingeeza wrote:Problem is when deluded fools like that one who crashed his well-overloaded Cherokee into a field out of Barton. I say deluded because he really believed that his little Piper would carry all of those porkers and their twitchers' kit aloft with full tanks!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6674073/Greedy-pilot-overloaded-plane-29-stones-three-birdwatchers-make-1-000-profit.html?fbclid=IwAR23tR6vj9e9hGv1Bh1VPVA0PRW4CNY8yIAjyIi5Z2SOxXWgw03udpyhBcM


And he is another one with only a PPL charging for illegal flights under the guise of cost sharing, and that information came directly from the prosecution.
flyingeeza liked this
User avatar
By Miscellaneous
#1672546
G-BLEW wrote:How so?

Seems to me the business is dependent on flights that are not truly cost share in the widely understood aviation definition.

In simple terms, there's too much of a conflict of interest in being profitable whilst adhering to the law.
User avatar
By defcribed
#1672548
SteveC wrote:It should be quite simple. Anything other than your lunch being bought is commercial transport and requires an AOC. Wingly should be shut down and the cost sharing rules revisited.


@SteveC, this summer just gone I had a weekend in Padstow (flying to Newquay) with three of my closest friends. We split all the costs. It was a fantasically efficient and cost-effective way for us to get to the west country.

It wasn't charter in any way, shape or form.

Are you really suggesting that should be illegal?
flybymike, Katamarino liked this
User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1672552
defcribed wrote:
SteveC wrote:It should be quite simple. Anything other than your lunch being bought is commercial transport and requires an AOC. Wingly should be shut down and the cost sharing rules revisited.


@SteveC, this summer just gone I had a weekend in Padstow (flying to Newquay) with three of my closest friends. We split all the costs. It was a fantasically efficient and cost-effective way for us to get to the west country.

It wasn't charter in any way, shape or form.

Are you really suggesting that should be illegal?


@defcribed

You just hit the nail directly on the head, "cost sharing with three of my closest friends" Absolutely nothing against or wrong with that concept.

However advertising on the internet via some website, lets just call it 'Wingly' for now, with available dates, airports of departure, prices etc. to basically non friends Jo public under the guise of cost sharing is nothing more than a charter in disguise.

Except the unknowingly Jo public are jumping in to an aircraft usually the cheapest single engine piston on the market with the lowest houred, least trained, lowest qualified pilot available, to fly from A to B.

And I do believe that concept of cost sharing has now just hit the headlines for all to see with the worst possible outcome.
Nick, Lefty liked this
By Boxkite
#1672557
Lockhaven wrote:.................
Except the unknowingly Jo public are jumping in to an aircraft usually the cheapest single engine piston on the market with the lowest houred, least trained, lowest qualified pilot available, to fly from A to B..............

This sentence is useless without statistics - have you got any ?
User avatar
By Lockhaven
#1672558
Boxkite wrote:
Lockhaven wrote:.................
Except the unknowingly Jo public are jumping in to an aircraft usually the cheapest single engine piston on the market with the lowest houred, least trained, lowest qualified pilot available, to fly from A to B..............

This sentence is useless without statistics - have you got any ?


Just read through some the advertisements, I did this 45 minutes ago.

I just quickly setup a 'Wingly' account as a passenger and can now get a round trip flight from the north of England to Jersey plus night stop with a 110 hour PPL for around £250 per person based on 3 passengers flying in a PA28, he/she even offers collection from other airports, FFS and you are trying to tell me thats safe and legal.


Strangely that advert has now suddenly disappeared, what does that tell you ?
#1672562
Lockhaven wrote:
I just quickly setup a 'Wingly' account as a passenger and can now get a round trip flight from the north of England to Jersey plus night stop with a 110 hour PPL for around £250 per person based on 3 passengers flying in a PA28, he/she even offers collection from other airports, FFS and you are trying to tell me thats safe and legal.


Strangely that advert has now suddenly disappeared, what does that tell you ?


Not sure, but let's look at the costs. Don't know what they class as the north of England, but let's say it's 3 hours each way to Jersey. 6 hours flying. Let's pick a random price for aircraft rental for a PA28 in the north of England, let's say £150 an hour. That's £900. Plus landing and parking fees. 3 people at £250 each is £750, leaving the Pilot to pay the rest. Doesn't seem hugely out of kilter.

Depending on the PA28 to lift 4 people, it may be a more expensive one (180hp? Maybe even a 235 but I doubt it).

Just looked it up, Sherburn Aero Club are £157.50 for a Warrior.
flybymike, Awful Charlie, Katamarino and 1 others liked this
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