Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1672479
Morten wrote:From today's Private Eye:
Image


Hopefully there are few individuals having a few sleepless nights at the moment waiting for a phone call or door bell to ring, because one thing is for sure this **** storm is going to create waves and I really hope those responsible for flights such as these end up doing some jail time.

The whole world of dodgy aircraft charters using aircraft with suspect airworthiness, flags of convenience, pilots without the required licences experience or qualifications needs bringing to an end, and its about time the UK CAA realised this, got of their comfy chairs in the Belgrano and started doing some work to stop it.

The 'Wingly' website would be my first port of call, I would start trying to book a few flights to see what comes up and then paying a few of those individuals a visit.
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By G-BLEW
#1672483
Lockhaven wrote:The whole world of dodgy aircraft charters using aircraft with suspect airworthiness, flags of convenience, pilots without the required licences experience or qualifications needs bringing to an end, and its about time the UK CAA realised this, got of their comfy chairs in the Belgrano and started doing some work to stop it.

The 'Wingly' website would be my first port of call, I would start trying to book a few flights to see what comes up and then paying a few of those individuals a visit.


Completely agree that the world of grey charters should be carefully looked at, but…

It needs looking at in its entirety. I don't believe the 'flags of convenience' thing (can and does happen with G reg and other EASA reg aircraft), I don't buy the Wingly thing, this flight was not a Wingly flight, and Wingly do more to check and educate under the current cost sharing regs than, I suspect, most individuals. As an example, Wingly only allows equal cost sharing, where the law allows much much more.

I'm not saying that N reg aircraft aren't also involved, and I'm not saying that everyone on Wingly is perfect, but to focus on those areas would not solve the bigger issue (which has been going on with all sorts of registrations and long before Wingly came on the scene).

Ian
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By Rob P
#1672485
G-BLEW wrote:As an example, Wingly only allows equal cost sharing, where the law allows much much more.


Is that true Ian?

It may be what is stated, but haven't we seen cost sharing offers on PA28 and the like indicative of £400/hr operating cost if equally shared?

Rob P
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By Lockhaven
#1672487
G-BLEW wrote:
Lockhaven wrote:The whole world of dodgy aircraft charters using aircraft with suspect airworthiness, flags of convenience, pilots without the required licences experience or qualifications needs bringing to an end, and its about time the UK CAA realised this, got of their comfy chairs in the Belgrano and started doing some work to stop it.

The 'Wingly' website would be my first port of call, I would start trying to book a few flights to see what comes up and then paying a few of those individuals a visit.


Completely agree that the world of grey charters should be carefully looked at, but…

It needs looking at in its entirety. I don't believe the 'flags of convenience' thing (can and does happen with G reg and other EASA reg aircraft), I don't buy the Wingly thing, this flight was not a Wingly flight, and Wingly do more to check and educate under the current cost sharing regs than, I suspect, most individuals. As an example, Wingly only allows equal cost sharing, where the law allows much much more.

I'm not saying that N reg aircraft aren't also involved, and I'm not saying that everyone on Wingly is perfect, but to focus on those areas would not solve the bigger issue (which has been going on with all sorts of registrations and long before Wingly came on the scene).

Ian


Sorry Ian I disagree.

It would be naive to think that there are not plenty of individuals operating under the 'Wingly' banner that are using every possible opportunity to flout the rules regarding cost sharing of aircraft, they were handed the cost sharing option on a plate by the CAA/EASA and left to their own devices using self regulation.
By tomshep
#1672495
I take your point, Ian but I don't agree with much of the underlying premise that allows those with recreational licences to tout for professional work. There are other ways of flying more cheaply than by running a minicab (not Minicab) service in sombody's hire plane.
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By G-BLEW
#1672502
Sorry Ian I disagree.

It would be naive to think that there are not plenty of individuals operating under the 'Wingly' banner that are using every possible opportunity to flout the rules regarding cost sharing of aircraft, they were handed the cost sharing option on a plate by the CAA/EASA and left to their own devices using self regulation.


The Wingly model (other platforms are available) is an equal share of the cost, so you'd have to grossly overestimate the costs to make anything out of this.

Let me ask this another way, if you closed down cost sharing platforms and removed the cost sharing rules, do you think the problem of grey charters would be solved? I'm sure that it also takes place in the bizjet world too, and that won't be Wingly.

At least with Wingly you have information, checks and balances and a website that makes it easy for the CAA and other NAAs to spot abuse.

Ian
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#1672504
G-BLEW wrote:The Wingly model (other platforms are available) is an equal share of the cost, so you'd have to grossly overestimate the costs to make anything out of this.

Have you looked at some the the advertised prices against the cost of what's offered? :wink:

There was a thread a while back that threw up some interesting offers.
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By tomshep
#1672507
I think that given the fines and sanctions handed out for infringements of airspace, the grey charter needs to be explicitly and expensively proscribed with the full force of the law otherwise what is that extra training and its cost for?
Grey charters have no protection for the customer from a cowboy who sees a chance to fly a bigger ego trip than he is good at. Time they were outlawed.
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By johnm
#1672510
The system or technology that can’t be abused has yet to be invented. The fact that something is abused does not therefore make it bad. The answer is to sanction abusers not destroy a useful system.

The internet is abused every second of everyday, do you propose we shut it down?
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#1672512
Problem is when deluded fools like that one who crashed his well-overloaded Cherokee into a field out of Barton. I say deluded because he really believed that his little Piper would carry all of those porkers and their twitchers' kit aloft with full tanks!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6674073/Greedy-pilot-overloaded-plane-29-stones-three-birdwatchers-make-1-000-profit.html?fbclid=IwAR23tR6vj9e9hGv1Bh1VPVA0PRW4CNY8yIAjyIi5Z2SOxXWgw03udpyhBcM
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#1672516
Lockhaven wrote:
Hopefully there are few individuals having a few sleepless nights at the moment waiting for a phone call or door bell to ring, because one thing is for sure this **** storm is going to create waves and I really hope those responsible for flights such as these end up doing some jail time.

The whole world of dodgy aircraft charters using aircraft with suspect airworthiness, flags of convenience, pilots without the required licences experience or qualifications needs bringing to an end, and its about time the UK CAA realised this, got of their comfy chairs in the Belgrano and started doing some work to stop it.

The 'Wingly' website would be my first port of call, I would start trying to book a few flights to see what comes up and then paying a few of those individuals a visit.


I agree with all you have written, apart from the last paragraph.

Wingly is not my cup of tea - but to suggest they or similar are the cause of this problem.

Illegal (nothing grey about this in my books) is as old as the road to Rome, and we all know that.

Starting with Wingly et al would not do anything about the likes of what has happened here.
flybymike, jerry_atrick, msalsouri and 1 others liked this
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By G-BLEW
#1672518
Miscellaneous wrote:
G-BLEW wrote:The Wingly model (other platforms are available) is an equal share of the cost, so you'd have to grossly overestimate the costs to make anything out of this.

Have you looked at some the the advertised prices against the cost of what's offered? :wink:

There was a thread a while back that threw up some interesting offers.


Yup, and I don't think people taking advantage on Wingly or elsewhere should be tolerated.

Have you seen the prices charged for cost sharing flights by some individuals? No, me neither.

Ian
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