Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Harry Brown
#1672716
romille wrote:
Harry Brown wrote:
romille wrote:Flying, like motorcycling and many other risky activities attracts a certain number of people that can best be described as an accident looking for somewhere to happen. Fortunately most folk take safety seriously but I am sure we all know the odd person that does not. I am not suggesting that only the reckless end up in difficulties as clearly luck and circumstances can conspire against us.


Next time you drive down a motorway have a look at how " Most Folk" drive along ridiculously close to each other, do they take safety seriously?

I can think of stretches of roads were speeding motorists have caused numerous accidents primarily because they all drive to fast. Once the speed cameras went up guess what? They all slowed down. Where they all suddenly taking safety seriously?

I agree that a great many people drive far too fast and close to the car in front, even worse is when you leave a proper amount of space some clown moves into it. My assertion that most folk take safety seriously was referring to those that indulge in risky activities, not everyone.


Do you not think driving on public roads is a risky activity?
All activity carries risk some minor, some major but I would say being a road user of any kind carries quite a large risk of injury as the figures show.

Although I see our local A & E says that its top of the list injury are now from DIY accidenta! accidents
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By defcribed
#1672721
Driving on public roads is a risk, but it's hardly 'indulging' in a risky activity. It's hardly possible to function in the modern world without travelling on the public highway.

No-one needs to get into an an aircraft - that's the difference.

I had a conversation/debate with my father along similar lines around this time last year, but to do with sailing. He decided that at the age of 76 and with an increasing role in looking after my mother, sailing no longer came under his acceptable risk threshold for recreational activities. Sure, tootling around the med is probably safer than driving on British roads, but one is completely optional and the other almost unavoidable.
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By Waveflyer
#1672724
tomshep wrote:All flying accidents are preventable........

.....and to be prevented in the future they have to be investigated, publicised, digested, understoood and continually resurrected.

I’ve never read a book yet on “Short cuts to Safety”.
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By Harry Brown
#1672732
defcribed wrote:Driving on public roads is a risk, but it's hardly 'indulging' in a risky activity. It's hardly possible to function in the modern world without travelling on the public highway.

No-one needs to get into an an aircraft - that's the difference.

I had a conversation/debate with my father along similar lines around this time last year, but to do with sailing. He decided that at the age of 76 and with an increasing role in looking after my mother, sailing no longer came under his acceptable risk threshold for recreational activities. Sure, tootling around the med is probably safer than driving on British roads, but one is completely optional and the other almost unavoidable.


Perhaps you could have the same chat with the Duke of Edinburgh?
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By David Wood
#1672743
@Harry Brown I wouldn't disagree with much that you said. And I'm certainly NOT saying that experienced pilots are immune from making poor judgements - indeed, as you have pointed out, there are occasions upon which some of the most experienced pilots have made some of the poorest judgements. I've made some poor ones myself...

What I was trying to say (perhaps not very well) is that whilst we all understand what the words risk and safety mean as linguistic terms, one individual's perception of the level of each that is applicable in a particular set of circumstances will probably differ from another's. There is no right answer; there is just a spectrum of risk and risk tolerance upon which we all operate. No-one can seriously expect to fly (or drive, sail or indeed just live) in a zero-risk environment. Ergo we all accept some level of risk as part and parcel of what we do. It's all about how sensibly we measure that risk, how much of it we are prepared to accept at any given time, and what we do (or don't do) to manage the risks.
Last edited by David Wood on Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By Harry Brown
#1672752
Thanks Dave

What I am really trying to say is that Risk Assessment needs to be taught from day one of flying training. However to teach any subject properly you need to be committed to the subject, knowledgeable about the subject and up to date with the subject.

One of my colleagues, whom I respect dearly, is one this countries most well known FIC instructors. He said to me recently ,Threat & Error Management is a complete load of Bolox. He is teaching pilots to be instructors with that bias (and its only because he doesnt understand it) and they in turn will pass that bias onto their students and so it goes on! You dont suddenly wake up one morning with a knowledge of TEM despite how many GASCO meetings youve been to or copies of Flyer youve read.(although that can help!)

TEM is a serious subject not taken seriously by many instructors seemingly because it takes a bit of academic effort and takes a bit of shine off the macho pilots persona.
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By David Wood
#1672754
@Harry Brown I think we're in danger of violently agreeing on this.... :D

Where I diverge from some of the sentiments expressed in this thread is that whilst I entirely agree that threats and errors should be managed (and, as you say, students should be taught how to manage them properly), it is wishful thinking to hope that they can be completely eliminated.
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By Lockhaven
#1672759
Harry Brown wrote:Thanks Dave

TEM is a serious subject not taken seriously by many instructors seemingly because it takes a bit of academic effort and takes a bit of shine off the macho pilots persona.


Whats TEM all about ?
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By Flintstone
#1672765
Harry Brown wrote:All opinion is valid and useful, its unfortunate that some on here cannot accept anything that challenges their divine right to be correct without making snide comments but not today, so far!



Until now?
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By Harry Brown
#1672766
Waveflyer wrote:
tomshep wrote:All flying accidents are preventable........

.....and to be prevented in the future they have to be investigated, publicised, digested, understoood and continually resurrected.


This is the basis of Threat & Error Management that has supposed to have be on the PPL Syllabus for the last 20 years I know of.

The problem with saying ALL flying accidents are preventable is misleading and can give a false sense of security. For instance I could say as all accidents are preventable I do not need a fire truck at my airfield because Ive taken every precaution possible to prevent a landing or take off accident. All of those precautions that ive taken are as a result of knowledge Ive gained through personal experience and knowledge Ive acquired though study. However on landing the tube in my starboard wheel bursts and I go off the runway and you know the rest.

Yes I could have POSSIBLY have prevented that accident if before flight if I had taken the tube out of the tyre and sent it a way to a tyre specialist laboratory and had in analysed, The clue why I didnt do that is contained in the last word of the last sentence!

Understanding that MOST but not all accidents have an error chain within them that are as a result of Human Performance & Limitation factors is going to be more useful than saying "all accidents are avoidable" in this case.

Yes I hear you say, that's just "academic" but not if your trapped in a burning aircraft knowing the fireman has gone home.
By Harry Brown
#1672768
David Wood wrote:@Harry Brown I think we're in danger of violently agreeing on this.... :D

Where I diverge from some of the sentiments expressed in this thread is that whilst I entirely agree that threats and errors should be managed (and, as you say, students should be taught how to manage them properly), it is wishful thinking to hope that they can be completely eliminated.


Sorry Dave but your going to have to beat me up on another day because I completely agree with you.

UPDATE

I just realised you said AGREE! Didnt see that coming, I obviously need some more Threat & Error training.
Last edited by Harry Brown on Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Waveflyer
#1672775
tomshep wrote:But they are. Just like birth defects can be completely eliminated by sterilising the whole population.

Ah, of course. We can prevent all aviation accidents by not aviationing :D