Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By eltonioni
#1674107
What's the operational cost of having a P2 on these smaller commercial GA flights? I'm not trying to put anyone out of business but having a 2 pilot requirement for commercial passenger ops must surely all but eliminate the opportunity for grey charters and bad decision making.

I've used a commercial single pilot PA31 to the CI's before and it did occur to me that if the pilot dropped dead it would be down to me as a lowish hour SEP PPL with some instrument qualifications to work out how to fly a big piston twin into Jersey in the rain, and that's not something I fancy learning in a hurry. A lowly SEP PPL would be a luxury for most single pilot op charters.
Last edited by eltonioni on Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
By johnm
#1674112
Aurigny flew single pilot CAT Alderney Southampton and elsewhere for years until they dropped the Trislanders for two crew Dorniers and their costs went through the roof.
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By Josh
#1674130
eltonioni wrote: having a 2 pilot requirement for commercial passenger ops must surely all but eliminate the opportunity for grey charters and bad decision making.


Sadly not. There are enough shadier AOC outfits that will bust minima that it’s noticeable. They tend to make money too as when customers get to their destination, then don’t with a more reputable company because they can’t get in, they go back to the shadier option. If the Captain is the chief pilot and the copilot is brand new, it’s easy to normalise that sort of behaviour.
Flintstone liked this
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By Iceman
#1674139
The bottom line is that a second pilot is not required by law on a single-crew aircraft and hence it would be an unnecessary expense. A second pilot would also eat into your allowable payload which is often quite restrictive on smaller aircraft. The only safeguard against a single crew becoming incapacitated is that their Class 1 medical is performed more often at once every six months rather than once every year.

Iceman
#1674152
Sadly, given the circumstances and in view of the fact his expertise is not in aviation I think the following statement from Mearns is unnecessary and unhelpful. That and other comments directed at the AAIB whilst the pilot remains lost and investigation is active, are leading me to lose a little respect for the man.

Since the discovery he hasn’t seen the Salas, who are now in France. “But we’re in touch every day; I’ve offered to fly to them and sit down and tell them certain things.” Mearns can’t speculate publicly about what went wrong but, given the model’s patchy safety record, says: “I wouldn’t go in a Piper Malibu.”
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By Lockhaven
#1674169
Miscellaneous wrote:Sadly, given the circumstances and in view of the fact his expertise is not in aviation I think the following statement from Mearns is unnecessary and unhelpful. That and other comments directed at the AAIB whilst the pilot remains lost and investigation is active, are leading me to lose a little respect for the man.

Since the discovery he hasn’t seen the Salas, who are now in France. “But we’re in touch every day; I’ve offered to fly to them and sit down and tell them certain things.” Mearns can’t speculate publicly about what went wrong but, given the model’s patchy safety record, says: “I wouldn’t go in a Piper Malibu.”


Exactly why I used the word interesting, along with a few other comments that they wrote about the AAIB :shock:
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By Flintstone
#1674173
Josh wrote:
eltonioni wrote:Sadly not. There are enough shadier AOC outfits that will bust minima that it’s noticeable. They tend to make money too as when customers get to their destination, then don’t with a more reputable company because they can’t get in, they go back to the shadier option. If the Captain is the chief pilot and the copilot is brand new, it’s easy to normalise that sort of behaviour.


You’re not wrong. A few years ago I was moving between jobs at two reputable companies when a delay occurred so I took a two month contract with a small UK operator.

I knew they had a reputation for being shonky and warned them that if they tried anything I’d be off. It took them less than a day to try to get me to break the rules.

Clearly other pilots were going along with it. One because he wanted the hours, the other who had personal problems (and, I later found out, was being blackmailed by the company owner).

This company had the full set. Flying aircraft over MTOW, busting duty hours, busting crew rest, flying aircraft with defects, maintenance by unlicensed engineers .....you name it. One of the most telling clues on the aircraft was that instead of fuel carnets there was a collection of credit cards in different names all of which were aliases of the owner.

They were the cheapest charter operator for the size of aircraft they ran and the only way they could do that was illegally. They were piggy-backing on an AOC and I told the holder what was happening as when it hit the fan he would be held accountable. He eventually kicked them off so they sued him, and won for breach of contract or something. There’s no justice in this world.
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By Lockhaven
#1674184
Flintstone wrote:
Josh wrote:
eltonioni wrote:Sadly not. There are enough shadier AOC outfits that will bust minima that it’s noticeable. They tend to make money too as when customers get to their destination, then don’t with a more reputable company because they can’t get in, they go back to the shadier option. If the Captain is the chief pilot and the copilot is brand new, it’s easy to normalise that sort of behaviour.


You’re not wrong. A few years ago I was moving between jobs at two reputable companies when a delay occurred so I took a two month contract with a small UK operator.

I knew they had a reputation for being shonky and warned them that if they tried anything I’d be off. It took them less than a day to try to get me to break the rules.

Clearly other pilots were going along with it. One because he wanted the hours, the other who had personal problems (and, I later found out, was being blackmailed by the company owner).

This company had the full set. Flying aircraft over MTOW, busting duty hours, busting crew rest, flying aircraft with defects, maintenance by unlicensed engineers .....you name it. One of the most telling clues on the aircraft was that instead of fuel carnets there was a collection of credit cards in different names all of which were aliases of the owner.

They were the cheapest charter operator for the size of aircraft they ran and the only way they could do that was illegally. They were piggy-backing on an AOC and I told the holder what was happening as when it hit the fan he would be held accountable. He eventually kicked them off so they sued him, and won for breach of contract or something. There’s no justice in this world.


Was that one of those 24 hour 7 day jet a week operations :wink:
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By G-BLEW
#1674198
eltonioni wrote:What's the operational cost of having a P2 on these smaller commercial GA flights? I'm not trying to put anyone out of business but having a 2 pilot requirement for commercial passenger ops must surely all but eliminate the opportunity for grey charters and bad decision making.


Nope, there have been many examples of two pilot illegal charters

Ian
johnm, Lockhaven, Flyin'Dutch' and 2 others liked this
By Dominie
#1674272
Iceman wrote:The bottom line is that a second pilot is not required by law on a single-crew aircraft and hence it would be an unnecessary expense. A second pilot would also eat into your allowable payload which is often quite restrictive on smaller aircraft. The only safeguard against a single crew becoming incapacitated is that their Class 1 medical is performed more often at once every six months rather than once every year.

Iceman

ISTR that there was a proposal many years ago to make Loganair fly their Islanders with two crew on grounds of "safety". The company said that in that case they would become the world's safest airline as they simply would not fly!
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By Rob P
#1674364
Meanwhile, back to the incident itself it appears the footballer died from injuries rather than drowning, according to a BBC Radio report earlier this evening.

Make of that what you will.

Rob P
#1674368
Lockhaven wrote:
Flintstone wrote:
Josh wrote:


You’re not wrong. A few years ago I was moving between jobs at two reputable companies when a delay occurred so I took a two month contract with a small UK operator.

I knew they had a reputation for being shonky and warned them that if they tried anything I’d be off. It took them less than a day to try to get me to break the rules.

Clearly other pilots were going along with it. One because he wanted the hours, the other who had personal problems (and, I later found out, was being blackmailed by the company owner).

This company had the full set. Flying aircraft over MTOW, busting duty hours, busting crew rest, flying aircraft with defects, maintenance by unlicensed engineers .....you name it. One of the most telling clues on the aircraft was that instead of fuel carnets there was a collection of credit cards in different names all of which were aliases of the owner.

They were the cheapest charter operator for the size of aircraft they ran and the only way they could do that was illegally. They were piggy-backing on an AOC and I told the holder what was happening as when it hit the fan he would be held accountable. He eventually kicked them off so they sued him, and won for breach of contract or something. There’s no justice in this world.


Was that one of those 24 hour 7 day jet a week operations :wink:



I knew you'd know. :D
Lockhaven liked this
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By MichaelP
#1674374
Interesting.
I almost sounds as bad as Canada!
The feedback from my former students in Canada working for some of the operators there was not very good.
I remember Switzerland putting out a warning to their tourists who might fly with some of the smaller airlines in Canada, :roll: was Canada a Russian state?

Unfortunately standards are dropping, even as far a Multi Crew Pilot Licences... Appropriate for automated commercial airliners perhaps, providing the manufacturer cares to advise of new safety systems and how to overide them if they go wrong.

So what do we feel about the new air taxis using automatic drone technology with no pilot on board?

Licencing is not the answer either.
The Cherokee becoming airborne through the fortune of the Redhill peri track notified us all of the fact that utilising a Boeing 707 rated pilot to fly boyscouts legally might be less safe than using a PPL current on type.

In my time cost sharing with friends and family was fine, but flying anyone on a chisel charter would bring the authority to your door.

A proper operation with safety management is what is necessary, though SMS is an expense nobody wants.
I did SMS last year for a small Chieftain operator, and for the offshoot flying training school.
But it seems safety to me means something proactive and not reactive.

Ultimately there’s a cost for aviation.
We can cut costs in the short term, not do essential maintenance, allow the defects list to grow (or as in Canada, not permit anyone to snag anything on the aeroplane), but in the end there’s a big bill (bankrupcy is common), or someone gets hurt.

The answer: training, including ethics, and bad karma to those who are not ethical in what they do.
KeithM liked this
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