Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By defcribed
#1753205
patowalker wrote:
defcribed wrote:Mackay did not just pay a PPL to transport a passenger in a random aircraft.


He arranged that flight for Sala. He says he had Henderson do it and thus the details are nothing to do with him. Henderson clearly says something else, and ultimately there's not enough of a paper trail to prosecute anyone for operating an illegal charter.

Whatever. He's a shady character and he knew that what he was arranging was not legit.

Someone said it earlier, but people don't leave a paper trail when they do this sort of stuff. When it all goes wrong and the authorities come sniffing around it may be obvious what was going on, but "it's obvious" does not usually convict.
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By FlarePath
#1753306
chrisbl wrote:
FlarePath wrote:
There has been many a time where I have not done a training flight in our C152 because to meet the school rules about fuel on landing, we would have been overweight at take off.


Is there a difference from MTOW for landing if so never seen it in POH.


What I was referring to was not a POH issue but a Flying Order Book issue which forms part of the basis documents for an ATO.

When we do skills tests they are done in accordance with the regulations and the school rules /FOB.

The solution is not to break the rules but, either I lose weight or be replaced with a skinny instructor and or restrict the size of students.



Really would like to know what the "rule" is there for on a C152 , to prevent what happening if "broken"?

And can honestly say never seen or heard this "rule" anywhere else except for those usually larger commercial acrft that do really have a Landing Weight Limit.
By Lefty
#1753311
Immediately after the accident, I asked on this forum
“With a passenger as valuable as Salla, why in God’s name wouldn’t they simply charter a jet with a professional crew”?
#1753318
Lefty wrote:Immediately after the accident, I asked on this forum
“With a passenger as valuable as Salla, why in God’s name wouldn’t they simply charter a jet with a professional crew”?


Because football agents are shysters.

This was a 'favour', if you like. The transfer deal had been done and the agent was sorting a flight out for Sala to go and say goodbye to his friends and ex-teammates at Nantes. He didn't have to do it as part of the deal and neither Sala nor either of the two clubs were paying for it. He was providing it as a post-deal freebie to help bolster his standing as the great facilitator with all parties involved.

He'd obviously made a tidy commission on a £15m transfer fee and I guess he viewed spending 1-2k (or whatever) of that money on providing these flights as a good investment with an eye on being asked to facilitate future deals either for Sala, Cardiff, or Nantes.

But of course, he wasn't going to spend more that he had to on it. It's a football and (murky) business matter really, not an aviation one.
Last edited by defcribed on Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#1753319
@FlarePath I think the relevance is that in the scheme of things the cost of flying in a Citation (as I believe he did before) is irrelevant.

Other than that I agree you are every bit as valuable as an individual. :thumright:
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By gasman
#1753326
defcribed wrote:
He'd obviously made a tidy commission on a £15m transfer fee and I guess he viewed spending 1-2k (or whatever) of that money on providing these flights as a good investment with an eye on being asked to facilitate future deals either for Sala, Cardiff, or Nantes.


The football agent (McKay) was on 10% commission (£1.5m) - nice ‘work’ if you can get it :shock:
By midlifec
#1753329
Interestingly, nobody seems to be talking about Mr McKay's previous forays into aviation, one of which resulted in a Pa31 landing without most of its landing gear on a Yorkshire hilltop with an invalid CofA , G-EEJE which a little bit like the football agents licence had also been registered in Willie's son, Mark's name. This aircraft appears to have been touring horse race courses of Europe with a variety of pilots at the controls, the accident pilot a PPL and prior to that , the well known 'charter' pilot Mr Murgatroyd ex of Blackpool. Insurers declined to pay out. I also understand that at or about the time of this incident, Mr McKay with the assistance of Mr Murgatroyd may have bought an aged Kingair from the USA- not sure where that was when the decision to use the dodgy Pa46 was made........... any indication that Mr McKay was naive re aviation operations is simply smokescreen, he may have been naive about legal aviation operations simply through osmosis from the individuals he has surrounded himself with, but nonetheless he knows right from wrong.
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By defcribed
#1753333
Miscellaneous wrote:@FlarePath I think the relevance is that in the scheme of things the cost of flying in a Citation (as I believe he did before) is irrelevant.

Other than that I agree you are every bit as valuable as an individual. :thumright:


If a club is paying for it then yes the cost of a Citation is not relevant, but when it's coming out of an agent's fee it's probably more relevant.

What is FlarePath's first touch like? (football reference)
#1753335
defcribed wrote:If a club is paying for it then yes the cost of a Citation is not relevant, but when it's coming out of an agent's fee it's probably more relevant.

I don't think Mackay was the agent in the transfer, which I suppose adds weight to your argument.
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By gasman
#1753339
defcribed wrote:If a club is paying for it then yes the cost of a Citation is not relevant, but when it's coming out of an agent's fee it's probably more relevant.


Yep, the £5k Citation charter cost would be a huge chunk of McKay’s £1.5m fee :roll:
#1753341
Miscellaneous wrote:
defcribed wrote:If a club is paying for it then yes the cost of a Citation is not relevant, but when it's coming out of an agent's fee it's probably more relevant.

I don't think Mackay was the agent in the transfer, which I suppose adds weight to your argument.


He claimed not to be. He is not a licensed agent, probably unable to get licensed due to his rap sheet, but is son is and it is clear that he effectively acts as one with his son as a front.

It's all very murky and his prints are all over it, but as always you can't prove anything.
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By defcribed
#1753344
gasman wrote:Yep, the £5k Citation charter cost would be a huge chunk of McKay’s £1.5m fee :roll:


I'm not disputing that £1.5m is a huge fee, but it's not that black and white. Football agents operate in a really murky world and it's nothing like conventional employment.

Not that I have any sympathy, but they regularly put huge amounts of work (and expense - travel and wining/dining) over long periods of time into deals that never come off and deals that they get cut out of at the last minute.

Your average football agent spends an awful lot of money out of his own pocket chasing those big commissions that are neither regular nor guaranteed. And being greedy shysters, they don't spend £5k on a sweetener when they believe £2k might suffice.
#1753374
TO add to the last post, it might come as a surprise that football is awash with financial losses. When you lost £34m in a season and still "owe" £74m to your owner Citation's aren't just called up like an Uber.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47344382
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