[rikur_]

This morning whilst on the local LARS frequency - I overhead a very nervous sounding voice "Student G-XXXX, temporarily uncertain of position, request heading to YYYY"
I was slightly surprised that the military LARS controller simply responded "G-XXXX, contact London Centre 121.50"
The student did as requested and contacted London centre. I listened out on 121.5 also as I was the vicinity.
D&D didn't respond to his first contact, but got his second attempt some 30 seconds later. D&D did their stuff, gave him a heading, put him on a squawk and kept him on frequency until he was visual with the VRP for his home airfield some 15 minutes later. Full marks to D&D.

The bit that felt less comfortable, was the hand-off from LARS. Is that normal protocol to bat a 'temporarily uncertain of position' request straight to D&D? You could tell by his voice that this notably increased the student's stress levels (and mine during the initial 30 seconds that D&D didn't respond). From pilotaware, I could also see his altitude wasn't stable, more sign of overload. I wouldn't have expected would have been difficult for the LARS unit to request a squawk ident, and give him a heading? Or is there a protocol?

[defcribed]

Was the student already working the LARS frequency, or was the request their initial call?

[rikur_]

Was the student already working the LARS frequency, or was the request their initial call?

I thought he was, but I can't be sure as the club in question has several aircraft with similar registrations, and until his distress call it was all just background noise. He was in a location where normal club training would be for him to be talking to the LARS unit.

[Ben K]

How do you know the LARS unit didn't call D&D via telephone to advise them of the situation, whilst continuing to monitor their own frequency (plus remaining in contact with D&D to ensure the stude talked to them)?

[rikur_]

How do you know the LARS unit didn't call D&D via telephone to advise them of the situation, whilst continuing to monitor their own frequency (plus remaining in contact with D&D to ensure the stude talked to them)?

I don't. Entirely possible that I've missed other bits of the situation too. My observation, (regardless of whatever was going on in the background), based on what I heard was that it sounded like it created a lot more stress for the student than perhaps it needed to.

I don't doubt that D&D are better placed to handle it - on the one previous occasion I've heard someone get passed to D&D in the past it was after brief radio exchange to assess the situation and confirm they are able/comfortable to make the call. The response may have been entirely appropriate for an airline pilot asking for the wrong service from the wrong person, but it was definitely prefixed 'student' and nerves were very obvious in the voice.

[Irv Lee]

No "squawk 0030" from the Lars then?

[Talkdownman]

"Student G-XXXX, temporarily uncertain of position, request heading to YYYY"
I was slightly surprised that the military LARS controller simply responded "G-XXXX, contact London Centre 121.50"

Save time. Call D & D in the first place. That's what they are there for and best at. If poss have 121.5 on standby. Don't muck about, just prod 121.5 and leave LARS to its routine stuff. LARS is the Devil's own job anyway. Civvy LARS in particular rarely has spare capacity to give such events undivided attention, they are usually too busy collecting callsigns.

[rikur_]

No "squawk 0030" from the Lars then?

No, D&D put him on 3307 once they'd got him.

[Irv Lee]

D+D recently appealed for 0030 to be used as soon as suspicion of lost even before contacting them. Perhaps they don't read my "recent changes" briefing sheet... www.higherplane.co.uk/bfr-ground.pdf - first real item is 0030

[riverrock]

my very limited experience is that they do that straight away (squawk a specific number) so the pilot can be identified via NATS secondary radar across the country. Saves trying to get a triangulated radio fix, which has patchy low level coverage. Its only really used if you can't reach D&D, or if outside NATS coverage as any radar controller who sees that 0030 squawk will phone D&D to say that they can see the 0030 squawk in their area. viewtopic.php?t=89469

[James Chan]

You could tell by his voice that this notably increased the student's stress level

Sure, but I think transfers from one frequency to another should be expected for the reasons explained by TDM.

I'm sure the instructor would have told him to keep flying the plane first if they're becoming overloaded.

Perhaps the student shouldn't have gone solo if he wasn't ready to handle this type of event.

[riverrock]

Should say - Irv will always know more than me - so take his comment over mine!

[Talkdownman]

No "squawk 0030" from the Lars then?

No, D&D put him on 3307 once they'd got him.

0030 is 'FIR Lost', and aircrew initiated, not ATS initiated.

"Any pilot who believes they are flying in the vicinity of the aerodromes listed below who is lost or temporarily uncertain of position should immediately seek navigational assistance from the appropriate radar unit. Alternatively, they should select code 0030 and contact either London or Scottish Centre on 121.500 MHz for assistance."

3307 is 'D&D Conspicuity Training Fix'. Not sure that the subject event was training!

[Mike Tango]

D&D are the specialists and best equipped to help so makes sense for them to work the student.

A ‘can you accept a frequency change’ query before transfer wouldn’t have been remis.

The short delay in replying from D&D may have been as they swapped around their transmitter sites to the ones best suited to where the D/F trace indicated the call came from.

[Irv Lee]

If he is moving off the Lars frequency it would be very good advice for pilot to go 0030 whilst changing in case he had trouble with contacting them. Onetwoonedecimalfife might be 121.005 to a student under pressure.