Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Rob P
#1666516
I can't see even the most sensitive relatives these weeks later searching the FLYER Forum and being upset by a discussion on the intricacies of Garmin satnav.

My 2p

And as ever I repeat my plea that if I stoof in you all freely discuss the minutiae of RV operation to the benefit of those who follow. Sandra promises not to peek.

Rob P
Straight Level, Ben K, Flyin'Dutch' and 9 others liked this
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1666672
Rob P wrote:I can't see even the most sensitive relatives these weeks later searching the FLYER Forum and being upset by a discussion on the intricacies of Garmin satnav.


Nobody is sensitive to the discussion on the intricacies of Garmin satnav, but rather what are perceived as unfounded comments on the performance of a pilot and aircraft engineer known by many on here to be highly competent in both those roles.

I find it offensive and ridiculous that anybody should suggest DH allowed his aircraft to take-off and continue on a flight in an unsafe condition.
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By defcribed
#1666685
Doesn't seem to have been mentioned by anyone else yet, but am I the only one to notice how inconspicuous that ALT warning light is? The word ALT appears in tiny orange text on an otherwise fairly blank and uninteresting part of the panel.

When Dave posted the picture and invited us to spot the issue I had a good look but after a minute or two gave up and scrolled forward through subsequent posts to find out what it was. I've not flown PA28s regularly for several years and so am not necessarily familiar, but it hardly grabs your attention. I'm reminded of my PPL5 Human Factors / Flight Safety book (which lives in my downstairs loo) where there is more than one reference to the stall warning light in early PA28s, with the suggestion that you'd hardly notice it unless you were looking straight at it. That is a bright red light, and this is just some tiny orange text.

I didn't spot it when I was studying the picture carefully for something I knew was amiss. Would I have noticed it in flight, particularly when there was spectacular scenery to look at instead? I very much doubt it.

I'm thankful that the alternator warning light in the TB10 is a square light some 15mm across. I've had it blinking intermittently once in flight and it was very noticeable - the panel instantly just looked completely wrong and the light really grabbed my attention.
Artschool liked this
By velostar
#1666692
This sad accident has brought into very sharp focus for me the importance of regular FREDA checks. A good FREDA check would spot an issue after which the information is verified and actions taken.

For the avoidance of doubt I am not saying these two didn’t spot the ALT light nor am I saying they didn’t take actions after the photo was taken. Nor am I saying this was a factor in the accident. But if two highly experienced commercial pilots can be in an aircraft when there appears to be an alternator issue, then it can happen to a simple low-hour painter and decorator like me.

That’s my learning from this accident and I’m kinda grateful SM shared his photo so publicly via Twitter.
Miscellaneous, T67M, JAFO and 2 others liked this
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1666697
Boxkite wrote:
patowalker wrote:I find it offensive and ridiculous that anybody should suggest DH allowed his aircraft to take-off and continue on a flight in an unsafe condition.

I am struggling to find the post(s) to which you are referring, can you help?


My mistake. I should not have mentioned take-off in that post. The warning light was photographed on fifteen miles from Cascais.

Unrelated to the above:
In a recording of what is thought to have been the pair's final communication with air traffic control before they crashed, they were heard discussing a change in their route when flying in foggy conditions
is highly unlikely, because a) broadcasting ATC communications is illegal in Spain, and b) it is contradicted by this
According to Iñaki López, the emergency coordinator of the Basque Government, the plane lost communication with the control tower at approximately 13:10 hours. It was traveling with two occupants - whose identity is still unknown - from Cascais airfield in Portugal to Hondarribia airport, which was only a few kilometers away (from Bilbao).

Its signal was lost "in transit" between the control towers of Bilbao and Donostia (San Sebastian). "The last communication occurs with Bilbao and when no response is received, the control tower begins enquiries, and when it does not manage to make contact, towards 13.40, it contacts us (the Department of Security of the Basque Government)", explained López.
(my translation of an article in Noticias de Alava)

There is a recording online of the exchange with Cascais before take-off, which was erroneously reported in some Spanish newspapers as being with San Sebastian.

The emergency services are reported to have found the wreckage at an altitude of 975m. Mt Hernio is 1078m high.
Last edited by patowalker on Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1666698
Our Arrow in a former life was used for IR training darn sarf.
The importance of a functioning alternator was clearly recognised as the Alternator warning and low voltage lights were taken out of the panel and feature large bulbs stacked one above the other above the panel on the coaming at mid point.

They certainly catch yer eye: low voltage light comes on at start up- a sort of self test I guess. (master is on in this pic)
(the red and amber lights to the left and below the coaming are the 'gear unsafe' and 'gear in transit' lights)

Image

Peter
#1666808
The PA28 alt light is a worry for me.

On test mine glows really bright, but is a dim glow when one turns the alternator off.

In June ladt year I had the alternator belt break on my Archer II when flying back from the annual in St. Barths - it happened about 70 miles NE of Barbados as best I can tell.

I did not notice the light being on - everything was working fine, the nav comms were illuminated (turns out thst the nixi tubes in Collins radios are very low power demanding things so all looks normal way past failure, my GPs in the panel mount has battery back up, ditto my tablet, I was using GPS not VOR's for nav (too far out for a reliable signal).

I only realised something was wrong when I thought I should have heard from GAIA APC by now - luckily I had just bought an ICom hand held - I thought maybe some weird radio failure, and so landed without incident, I only figured out what happened after I landed and spoke with with the guys in the tower who mentioned losing my transponder 70 miles out - they were about to organise a search and rescue when I piped up on the handheld.

I had a passenger who was being 'difficult' - a big distraction - to this day she doesnt realise she was in an emergency - luckily neither did I at the time, and with no retract gear and manual flaps just landed as normal.

A more prominent ALT warning is something I would like, although I now pay very close attention to elec gauge.

I do not have the experience of these guys but if they failed to notice the tiny dim ALT light, it could be an explaination for subsequent events.

I did not know either of them but have watched the Flying Reporter's banner tow flight and he came across as a meticulous pilot, but I can understand missing the tiny light - had he seen it and thus been dealing with it, I cannot help but think he would have commented on it in his tweet.
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By Gertie
#1666880
Ebbie 2003 wrote:turns out thst the nixi tubes in Collins radios are very low power demanding things

If they're really nixie tubes then yes, they're neon lights: provided the voltage is there they'll light up and take approximately zero current.
#1667047
Gertie - yup, nixie tubes, draw nothing - never knew that until this failure - panel, with these (2 comm and 2 nav), battery backup in the panel mount GPS and the battery in my tablet running Garmin Pilot, was lit up like a Christmas tree - the Narco DME was out, but I dont refer to it until 50 miles out and I was autopilots off working my way down through cloud VFR.

I got no clue what I had lost the alternator - I would not have believed it possible, but it happened.

Since then I have been looking for an STC'd "in yer face" light and audio warning - if anyone knows of one let me know.

Not good to speculate, but when the ALT light in the photo was pointed out it made my blood run a little cold - if like me you are running 40 year old nixie tube technology radios one must be aware that they will quit long, long, long before the display quits. I chould add that I had just upgraded my radios with what were likely the last two unfitted STEC/Collins units in the world, one in an unopened box which I bought for less than the cost of the nixies - hence my concern that I had radio failure having maybe not slid them in properly. All the while a dim light right in front of me telling me what was wrong - yup, the alt meter at zero I did notice but as I was trained on Cessnas the screaming significance passed me by as I was concerned just communicating on the handheld at its limit of range with, naturally, my headset removed.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By KeithM
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1667195
Whilst I, too, find fatal aviation accidents tragic and can fully appreciate the sensivities involved and appreciate the avoidance of speculation, there is, nevertheless, early and clear evidence of a definite problem in this case.

Whether or not it was the cause, or a cause, of the accident is, of course, less definite at this point in time.

That said, it does seem tragically ironic that such a picture was taken and tweeted and thus is serving a positive purpose in emphasising the importance of the FREDA check. It has certainly got my attention.

I fly rental PA28s, almost exclusively, and have only had one issue, a temporary radio failure. Like another poster, I also had to resort to the handheld. I bought one purely for such an eventuality.

I would say, however, whilst I fully understand the emotions involved, it is also not necessarily helpful, or educational in safety terms, to assume that some, or any, of us are infallible because all too often the final reports have shown, or strongly suggested, otherwise.

The important thing is that we all learn something from each and every incident irrespective of any emotions that may or may not be involved and I can only think of one example of a pilot who deliberately crashed an aircraft.
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1667203
Airborne out of Beauvais in the Sundowner I noticed a sudden discharge, switched the fan off, switched all unnecessary electrics off.
Landed at le Plessis and took the alternator off.
Now what am I to do?
Put it back on again!

Flew to Macon, then to La Mole. From La Mole to Cannes and back, from La Mole to Abbeville.
Used the transponder for Lyon airspace.

I wish I had pulled the cb for the Turn Coordinator as the battery would have lasted longer.
Used the icom to return to White Waltham, even getting a clearance to cut the corner inside Bagshot mast to avoid weather over Farnborough.
Importance was having enough battery to run the electric fuel pump.

Difference of course is the undercarriage is fixed, and the system is 24 volts.
But if you are used to flying without any electrics at all then flying an aeroplane with a battery is a luxury.
It should never be an emergency, it should be a diversion at worst.
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By Rob P
#1667219
KeithM wrote:... and I can only think of one example of a pilot who deliberately crashed an aircraft.


Two I have known personally :(

Rob P
By KeithM
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1667316
MichaelP wrote:But if you are used to flying without any electrics at all then flying an aeroplane with a battery is a luxury.
It should never be an emergency, it should be a diversion at worst.


Does that not depend on the precise nature of the flight conditions (VMC/IMC), the route conditions (airspace/terrain etc.) and whether flying VFR or IFR?
gasman, T67M, Flyin'Dutch' and 2 others liked this
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