Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1663615
Rob P wrote:You can land an RV without a little hop or two? :scratch:

Every day's a school day here at FLYER

Rob P :D


I can recon to land mine with no hop skip or jump. Unless someone is watching. :D




I find my eye is positioned so the cowling is on the horizon/runway end for a nice three pointer. If I get it right she normally settles pretty well.

If I get the nose too high and the tail touches first the mains come down with a bit of a thump but once down they stay stuck.

The only time I get lots of bounces is if I’m too fast. She just shouldn’t have enough energy to bounce that much.


Looking at your video and comparing to one of mine. You do move that stick a lot.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1663644
"Lots of bounces" doesn't happen. If it was headed that way I'd go around.

"A little hop" happens on most landings for me.

Speed control is an issue with the 6, it never was so much in the 4 which had a c/s prop.

Rob P
#1663648
Our 8's approach speed is generally 75kt with a little added or taken away dependent on weight. I don't know what speed I'm doing over the hedge as I'm looking outside, and I stall and land at 61kt. Up until a few weeks ago we had our battery on the firewall and had a very forward CG, and tail low wheelers were the preferred landing method and it seems to bounce less on grass than it does now, with the battery moved to the rear fuselage and the CG where it's supposed to be. However, now you can more easily attain a three point attitude and stop the aeroplane quicker (down and stopped in less than 300m in zero wind with no braking on grass).

Jonny, you'll find the aeroplane has no idea whether it's been dragged in on the power or has had a steeper, slower approach when it comes to touching down(though a steeper slower approach is better form). It only knows how much energy it's carrying. To bounce less, you need to be at the lowest energy state when the wheels touch, and with the lowest downward element in your trajectory as possible (so far so obvious..). The way to achieve this is to get down to the last foot/six inches or so and then hold off until the landing attitude you desire is achieved. Keeping a trickle of power in makes this a much less tricky process as the speed decays much less rapidly, giving you a bigger window to select the right moment. Once you have the attitude you desire, stop bringing the stick back and chop the power, and the aeroplane will settle onto the ground, at which point (assuming you still want a wheeler), you check forwards to about the neutral point with the stick to keep it pinned to minmise the bounces. If you get unlucky and hit a bump which sends you flying again, then open the taps and have another go, and try to miss the bump next time around.

I'm not an instructor, it's just that it's this technique that worked for me in my RV.
Lockhaven liked this
#1663652
I've done a litte tail-wheel flying and IMHO the first thing to get right in a good landing is the airspeed (as it is, incidentally in nose-wheel aeroplanes too). Many (most?) pilots err on the side of approaching too fast, such is their fear of stalling on the approach or of wind-shear. Or maybe they were just badly taught. But, as has been pointed out, Va is 1.3 x the stall speed in the approach configuration, so that worry is over-blown (provided of course that the pilot can control his airspeed within 5 kts or so). The 'add another 5kts for the wife and kids' is ill-founded nonsense that contributes to over-cooked approaches, balloons, bounces and busted nose-wheels. Fly at the correct IAS and you'll have the first box ticked.

The second thing to get right, oddly, is where to look. Look at the far end of the runway as you enter the flare. I tell my students to imagine a flagpole at the far end of the runway and to fix their eyes on the flag. It this stage it's all about judging the height above the ground and, vitally, the aeroplane's pitch attitude. The attitude should be progressively changed to either the 3-point attitude or the wheeler attitude, depending what is desired. Another great tip (not mine) is that at this stage you're trying NOT to land. Bear in mind, there is only one correct attitude for 3-pointing. It's either correct or it isn't, and if it isn't you will bounce - as we all do from time to time.

That leads to the issue of how to correct minor diversions as you adjust the pitch attitude from the approach attitude to the landing attitude whilst maintaining a steady height (2-3 ft). This is the crux of the problem of bouncing and ballooning. But, if we go back to point 1, if the IAS is correct as you come into the flare then the tendency to bounce or balloon is markedly reduced. And if you are looking at the right spot then it is so much easier to assess both the height and the pitch attitude moment-by-moment.

The problem in this short transition period is that there is a tendency to try to fly the aeroplane onto the ground. That is evidenced by pilots seeking to control a bounce or balloon by pushing the stick forward to counteract an unwelcome pitch-up. Such action very often ends in tears, since it is highly likely that the control input will lag the pitch change that it sought to cure, and a sequence of PIOs will result, sometimes with catastrophic consequences.

However, here I depart from the 'let go of the stick' advice which, with all due respect to its source, is somewhat unusual and not, I suggest, very helpful advice. You don't need to let go of the stick (and in my opinion should NOT do so) but you DO need to resist any temptation to counteract a bounce or balloon by pushing the nose down. That is not to say that the stick should remain rock-solid. What may be required is a relaxation of back-pressure, coupled to a touch of power to arrest any over-fast rate of descent. And, if in doubt, of course Go Around.

The other tip I would give is about nailing into your mind's eye the correct attitude at touchdown (and remember, this applies just as much to a nose-wheel aeroplane which, by its design, is more forgiving). So in a tail-dragger, sit in the aeroplane on the ground in your chosen seat position. You are in the 3-point attitude. That is precisely the attitude you need to be at the millisecond prior to touchdown. If not, you will bounce. Then, put the tail on a trestle at the wheeler landing attitude (beware of the balance point) and get back into the aeroplane. Now remember the attitude for the wheeler landing. It will obviously be a few degrees lower than the former, but no less critical. You need to remember both.

Finally, the R-word: Relax. Relax and fly relaxed and suddenly it all gets easier!
Last edited by David Wood on Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Flyin'Dutch', Lockhaven, JonnyS and 1 others liked this
#1663654
@David Wood

Perfectly described above for a 3 point landing, and the best advice given above is:

David Wood
Sit in the aeroplane on the ground in your chosen seat position. You are in the 3-point attitude. That is precisely the attitude you need to be at the millisecond prior to touchdown. If not, you will bounce. Then, put the tail on a trestle at the wheeler landing attitude (beware of the balance point) and get back into the aeroplane. Now remember the attitude for the wheeler landing.
#1663897
Sorry if my earlier post was blunt, but whilst I won’t argue with people who say they prefer wheelers over three pointers (we can all have a preference), I don’t want this thread to be read by nosewheel flyers who go away believing that a posh blog has convinced them that wheelers are the best option by someone who didn’t actually give the conventional three point shorter field option a proper chance!

Sadly, social media has managed to get the whole world believing stuff that is only one person’s opinion..

Wheelers are great. You can plant the mains and you can pretty much guarantee a no-bounce arrival. But, the whole ‘less stress on the rolled steel U/C’ thing is a false fact. A wheeler with full forward elevator and 70 kts of airspeed is going to put much more pressure on the UC than a stall speed flare, even with a hop, especially on a rough grass strip in the summer.

Wheelers are also an option that will teach absolutely nothing about careful speed control. You can paste the mains on at anything between VNE (!!) and stall speed and the tail will drop when it wants to. That might be after 3 seconds, or after 60 seconds if you came in hot. You are literally sitting there praying, and with zero distance control, unless you’re brave with the brakes, which can ultimately end up with relying on third parties to flip your aircraft back over so you can exit.

I’m not dissing the wheeler option. I’m just saying that it doesn’t instill any approach speed discipline, and I have two 400 metre airstrips that would happily land an RV flown by someone like RobP doing a three pointer, but would be a Visicover conversation if someone did a wheeler. I’m not kidding.

Wheelers are certainly an option, amd we all use them at times, and they are also great in certain funky wind situations (a whole new topic), but to say they’re better than three pointers is like only ever eating Ginsters Pasties because you can’t be bothered to learn how to cook fillet steak.
Rob P, Flyin'Dutch', Rich V and 2 others liked this
#1663907
Just to add another bit to the mix. From a personal point of view a tail down wheeler gives the most consistent landing when I flying RV.’s


Sometimes three point is better, and times where a good wheeler is best. What you need is to have the skill set for all three and the judgement to decide which one to use.

Last time I landed at one of Farmers strip I used the three point and skip method.

I would not let the stick go in an RV, but letting it have free pitch is a good method in some types.
User avatar
By IainD
#1663983
Wide-Body wrote:Just to add another bit to the mix. From a personal point of view a tail down wheeler gives the most consistent landing when I flying RV.’s


Sometimes three point is better, and times where a good wheeler is best. What you need is to have the skill set for all three and the judgement to decide which one to use.

Last time I landed at one of Farmers strip I used the three point and skip method.

I would not let the stick go in an RV, but letting it have free pitch is a good method in some types.


Absolutely agree. Same in the RV9 tailwheeler. Tail down /Wheeler gives the most consistent landings and will easily stop with no braking in 400 metres. Speed is the key though and even a few knots fast will liven up your day :) From the OPs original video the approach looked low and fast to me and slowing up on short final would improve things as the aircraft also appeared to land very long. Do this on 25 at Old buck and you would be in the Gamekeeper pub when you finally stopped :) (local knowledge needed for this gag)
Iain
#1664341
When landing any aircraft (tailwheel or nosewheel) once the sticks starts to come back it shouldn't thereafter go forward at all. Landing bounces are to be expected on rough strips, and you should simply go along with them (by holding the stick in the same place) until the aircraft settles. In the OP's original video the stick was fast moved back and forth.

Ballooning is, of course, to be avoided, and may require a power input - not forward stick.

I think! :? :?
#1664347
Aeronca Alan wrote:not forward stick


Uh-oh, let's not start this debate again! : D (last time there was an argument about whether "releasing the back pressure" and the stick moving forward slightly constituted "moving the stick forward")

"Aha" moment? After taking on the challenge?