Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Cessna57
#1653818
Dangerman wrote:
Cessna57 wrote:Oh well, i suppose it just INCREASES the stranglehold that Flarm have on EC.

Shame, I thought SE2 was going to be the final answer, once and for all. All they’ve done is team up with Flarm so now powered pilots have to pay £30 a year too.

Massive coup for Flarm.


For me this really epitomises the problem I have with PAW. You are free to develop your product in whatever way you want, but there really is no need for the histrionics which are displayed whenever anyone says or does anything which could possibly affect your profits. In fact it does strike me as "pot calling kettle black" when you have chosen to stick with a proprietary transmission protocol and not go down the ADSB route presumably so you can continue to charge an annual licence fee for PAW.

I have a PAW, and it is OK. However, this is an initiative which I think is fantastic, and this is the route I will be taking as soon as the CAA get their finger out and sort out the whole "simultaneous Mode S and ADSB" situation.


This isn’t really anything to do with PAW, and I no longer manufacture or fulfil orders for PAW.

It’s like you’re not allowed to have an opinion.

I think what’s happened with me is that I’ve got so fed up of the SE2 vs PAW that GazNav constantly constantly inflames that I’m now trying (that’s trying) to be objective.

What happened was that when I was involved with PAW I was fed up of GazNav constantly going on about how SE2 had no subscription, didn’t use ground stations etc etc etc.

Then this is posted and you think “FFS, their official tester who is given free kit has been going on and on about how it’s a one off payment, no license fee, etc. etc” and then this happens.

Really sorry Tim and Uavionix, I suppose I’ve just become jaded, I don’t think GazNav doing your marketing has helped to be honest.

So, apologies, this is a good step forward, and it is positive to be able to see gliders.

It’s a shame it’s only SD, but I shouldn’t fault them for being proactive and doing a deal with Flarm.

It’s GazNav I’m fed up with, not SD or Uavionix, apologies for the transference to you of something that’s not really your fault.

Now...

Tim...

How do I register for this free bag of money!
ChrisT liked this
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By Dave W
#1653819
Cessna57 wrote:It’s a shame it’s only SD, but I shouldn’t fault them for being proactive and doing a deal with Flarm.


Tim Dawson wrote:No doubt other apps will follow our lead in due course. They are free to do so.
Cessna57, ls8pilot liked this
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By flyingeeza
#1653825
Shoestring Flyer wrote:£30 a year over say 10years is £3000 plus £450 for the initial cost of SE2....Are you all mad! :?


30 x 10 is how much?? :roll:
User avatar
By ls8pilot
#1653874
Cessna57 wrote:Oh well, i suppose it just INCREASES the stranglehold that Flarm have on EC.

Shame, I thought SE2 was going to be the final answer, once and for all. All they’ve done is team up with Flarm so now powered pilots have to pay £30 a year too.

Massive coup for Flarm.


I think some of the commentary on Flarm is rather miss-placed. They invented an EC solution many years ago, before ADSB or PAW. They are a commercial company, so they made money out of selling and licencing their solution. They have preserved backward compatibility of hardware, and software updates are free. Several other companies pay the licence and produce hardware which is widely available. From the SD announcement they seem be open to other licence arrangements - it's great to see uavionix and SD being proactive and lets hope others follow suit.

Sure more recent developments may overtake Flarm, but saying that it should somehow be "blamed" for providing an EC solution to thousands of pilots in Europe and US for more than 10 years and making some money out of it is rather unrealistic.

I applaud the efforts of PAW and the like, and ADSB may well become the widely adopted standard in future. However so far Flarm has cost me less than £1/flying hour over the time I've had it - pretty good value for money!
Last edited by ls8pilot on Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dave W, gaznav liked this
By neilld
#1653875
This has a hint of realisation (by Flarm) that with the availability of low cost ADS-B devices and the possibility of it being mandated, their business may be heading for a downturn (at least in the powered GA market). This development will at least give them a revenue stream - however small.
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By ls8pilot
#1653883
neilld wrote:This has a hint of realisation (by Flarm) that with the availability of low cost ADS-B devices and the possibility of it being mandated, their business may be heading for a downturn (at least in the powered GA market). This development will at least give them a revenue stream - however small.


Good point - commercial pressures will hopefully bring the technologies closer together.

At the moment CAP 1391 devices (i.e. ADSB squitting without a transponder) are, AFAIK, UK only .

If these were accepted Europe-wide (Flarm's main market) then I think there would be an incentive to develop a combined Flarm/ADSB device, or maybe (as has been suggested) devices which provide "Flarm-like" collision detection from ADSB signals. Meanwhile it's great to see interoperation options increasing.
Flyin'Dutch', gaznav liked this
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By TLRippon
#1653885
SD & Sky Echo2 still won't work with my Windows 10 Tablet which has just made me dump PAW. When can we have a non WiFi interface like Bluetooth for example? I'm still electronically conspicuous through my Transponder but no longer see traffic. Frankly, the gliders that PAW & SD display can be distracting on a smaller screen, I expect even more so when you are not only picking up OGN contacts when in range but every one. The screen zoom required for accurate NAV means a lot of real estate is taken up with glider icons, which are usually miles away and not a conflict.
#1653887
TLRippon wrote:SD & Sky Echo2 still won't work with my Windows 10 Tablet which has just made me dump PAW. When can we have a non WiFi interface like Bluetooth for example? I'm still electronically conspicuous through my Transponder but no longer see traffic. Frankly, the gliders that PAW & SD display can be distracting on a smaller screen, I expect even more so when you are not only picking up OGN contacts when in range but every one. The screen zoom required for accurate NAV means a lot of real estate is taken up with glider icons, which are usually miles away and not a conflict.


Can you not change the settings so you only get warnings of relevant traffic?
#1653891
TLRippon wrote:The screen zoom required for accurate NAV means a lot of real estate is taken up with glider icons, which are usually miles away and not a conflict.


May I suggest a different approach. Use an old phone or tablet linked to the PAW to just display the traffic. You can use its own "Radar" display for that. Stick the phone somewhere near your eyeline.
flybymike liked this
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By Marvin
#1653894
ls8pilot wrote:
neilld wrote:This has a hint of realisation (by Flarm) that with the availability of low cost ADS-B devices and the possibility of it being mandated, their business may be heading for a downturn (at least in the powered GA market). This development will at least give them a revenue stream - however small.


Good point - commercial pressures will hopefully bring the technologies closer together.

At the moment CAP 1391 devices (i.e. ADSB squitting without a transponder) are, AFAIK, UK only .

If these were accepted Europe-wide (Flarm's main market) then I think there would be an incentive to develop a combined Flarm/ADSB device, or maybe (as has been suggested) devices which provide "Flarm-like" collision detection from ADSB signals. Meanwhile it's great to see interoperation options increasing.


Out of interest are you aware of any published information that suggest you have to disable ADS-B out from a portable device onside the UK FIR, and at least you can continue to use it in the listening mode.

While I was in Friedrichshafen AeroExpo uAvionix were demonstrating their wares and the German Authorities were also conducting trial with LPAT during project EVA.
By Nomad63
#1653895
We then decode them and feed the telemetry from the Flarm aircraft into our normal collision avoidance algorithms


Your normal collision avoidance algorithms?, when did they come about then?
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