Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By neilmurg
#1655775
gaznav wrote:Someone is either being economical with the truth or exaggerating the actual uptake numbers for their own gain...
That's a biased starting point.
It's data, it has a context, it should be viewed honestly without prejudice and from that you can draw useful conclusions. I did say it was a particular sample.
If it doesn't suit your preconceptions you can:
a) ignore / doubt / undermine it
b) think about what it means, accept it, contextualise it. Be informed and gather more data

We are all subject to bias, some more than others. I'd like to see EC perform a useful role in compensating for the known problems in 'see-and-avoid'.
I don't mind if anyone achieves that with a solution that isn't my favourite.
gaznav, Maxthelion liked this
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By Balliol
#1655778
I’ve examined at 8 different flying training organisations in the last few months, none has had PAW or any plans for it. All had Mode S, about half had FLARM fitted. I’ve not come across any school using PAW if I’m honest, perhaps it’s more of a private owner thing?
Flyin'Dutch', gaznav liked this
#1655785
^^^^^^^ Which comes right back to what I suggested some time ago......At "grass-roots" level , GA does not have the spare cash to keep up with ever-changing demands. They see the need for some sort of EC.....Who are they trying to avoid?

CAT flies in controlled airspace when they#re low enough to form a threat to "puddle- jumpers"

"serious" GA who want to, and can tangle with "the big boys", can afford the desirable ADSB solution.

The great unwashed cannot/ do not , by and large, go to any great altitudes and , for them, PAW forms an incredible VFM package which enables them to see the main threat...each other and the odd biz-jet or speed- machine.

I'd suggest that low- power = small range. which is fine for the low-level bimblers, but a biz-jet would not be solely equipped with a PAW and , due to it's speed, need a much more powerful transmission, in order that the bimblers have time to avoid.

Horses for courses!...You don't need ceramic brakes on a mondeo, but they're useful on a Ferrari

Lastly, sale of new products grows exponentially. The market didn't all rush to buy SE1 or it's predecessor
(only 1 has reported so-far a very short life, considering the investment. ) SE2 Is hampered by the uncertainty of proposed developments and the T's &c's attached.(once-bitten.....?) Look at the FLARM uptake. It's been going 5 times as long as PAW and also had the advantages of a completely untapped market with zero competition, and a USP to the Glider fraternity, which niche market, it still seems to be the only credible player.
I hope I'm able to see where PAW is in 8 years time. The only way it will fail is if ADSB becomes compulsory (based on present cost, that'll send all the older,cheaper machines to the scrap pile)
It does a job, it does it well, it is real VFM. ,

As a new product starts to become adopted, sales grow slowly, others see and hear about it,sales pick up pace....until something more desirable becomes available to the target market, or until that market is saturated, thenit's basically a replacement market or a features and enhancement-driven supercession
Observe , car-sales, computers, mobile phones.....even TV's (B&W ...big screen...colour.....flat screen...sound system enhancement....flat panel....multimedia...... Tinfoil hat at the ready!
User avatar
By G-BLEW
#1655792
This almost always ends up as two (figurative) bald blokes arguing over a comb.

So far there's no mandate planned let alone one coming down the tracks. It's truly great that PAW has been really innovative in way it receives various types of traffic. Similarly uAvionix has ben more inventive than anyone else out there with its ADS-B solutions, they're really doing some great things.

We (the consumers) are the winners here. Given the early stage of the technology and lack of mandate we don't have to make an early bet on the winner. This is electronics, it doesn't have the same shelf life as your Cessna 152, so you'll probably end up buying a couple more before anything's set in custard anyway.

Ian
johnm, gaznav, Bobcro and 7 others liked this
By ls8pilot
#1655835
G-BLEW wrote:This almost always ends up as two (figurative) bald blokes arguing over a comb.

So far there's no mandate planned let alone one coming down the tracks. It's truly great that PAW has been really innovative in way it receives various types of traffic. Similarly uAvionix has ben more inventive than anyone else out there with its ADS-B solutions, they're really doing some great things.

We (the consumers) are the winners here. Given the early stage of the technology and lack of mandate we don't have to make an early bet on the winner. This is electronics, it doesn't have the same shelf life as your Cessna 152, so you'll probably end up buying a couple more before anything's set in custard anyway.

Ian

Really good point here. We're used to avionics having a lifespan measured in 10's of years, but no-one expects their mobile phone or notepad to go that long without needing replacement due to technology changes or simple wear and tear.

Is it more realistic to assume that some modern electronic devices will need replacing or updating every 5-10 years? Certainly given the other costs of running an aircraft spending a few hundred pounds on something like PAW or SkyEcho with an expectation it will last for 5 years doesn't seem unreasonable. It's a shame the Flarm costs have increased so much (partly due to exchange rates I guess) - my original Flarm cost around £600 ten years ago.
G-BLEW, Flyin'Dutch', gaznav liked this
#1655836
It was always thus……………..

In GA the only acceptable currency is flying time - anything else is considered excessive cost.
cockney steve liked this
#1655859
Is it more realistic to assume that some modern electronic devices will need replacing or updating every 5-10 years?

I reckon if I have 2 years fun from a portable then the device has served me well
T67M, G-BLEW, Shoestring Flyer and 1 others liked this
By cockney steve
#1655870
I can accept that in the days of waxed-paper capacitors, valves with fragile filaments,and cotton covered wire ,some stuff had a short life-cycle. In this age of printed-circuits, plastic-encapsulated transistors and diodes, "chips" with a complete circuit in them, high quality Mylar, polyester and ceramic caps .........

The should be indestructible....they're not, because the product is built down to a price, where a few hundredths of a penny per component makes the difference between profit and loss. Quality and service-life can be built -in. Given the ridiculous cost of Certified equipment, a 20-year life is a modest expectation

How old was Concorde before it retired?- and I bet most of the electronics still work.

Totally agree that the low-price, uncertified kit has, probably, a fairly short life-expectancy At 5 years, with PAW, you're writing off £1 a week....but if you spent a grand or more on ADSB you'd want 25 years out of it, to achieve the same "affordability.

It's OK saying "only a quid" then there's "only" a tenner a week for the annual, and "only " a fiver for AOPA or LAA or BMAA.....and, before you know it, you can't afford land-away's fees.
As for mobile phones, maybe the status -symbolism and novelty has worn off, but my 10+ year-old Nokia still works perfectly.
User avatar
By Dave W
#1655886
The comment was about practical use life in the real world environment, not component or system serviceability.

I bet there are quite a few working Betamax recorders out there; the issue is that nobody has a use for them.
#1655893
Dave W wrote:I bet there are quite a few working Betamax recorders out there; the issue is that nobody has a use for them.


Along with the Stuka, do you want a photo of my Sony C7 as well? :D

I also have a C5 which I was given for free as a parts machine to keep the C7 going, but last time I tried it, the C5 worked as well though the picture wasn't as good as it could have been.

Things are a bit on hold in work today so I might try out the C7 this afternoon...
Dave W liked this
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1655899
Not to worry Paul -it can't be your fault:

An O2 spokesperson said a software issue identified by a third-party supplier was to blame for the outage.
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
#1655911
Sony! One of these:

Image

No, the outage is nothing to do with me, but much of the work for today is on hold until it's been fixed.

Ericsson, the Swedish firm that has close links with O2's Spanish owner Telefonica, told the BBC it was aware of an issue and it was investigating.

But not my bit specifically! :D

I have to leave Wales early today as well, got a Christmas Curry tonight in Guildford with a load of current and former colleagues. And got meetings all afternoon...first one starting in 1 min...
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