Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By PaulB
#1652821
What will be the likely impact on UK organisations providing training for commercial licences.

For example, if someone is part way through their ATPLs but won’t finish until after Brexit, what is the current state of play? (Accepting that the situation may be completely different next week!)
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1652824
proteus wrote:You are right that I do not understand the commercial side,

If you've collected these amongst the rest of the world why does this become impossible to do within european nations?


That is no doubt indeed possible, as it was pre EASA and JAR, but that will be at the cost of a lot of effort, time and thus money, and the infuriating bit about it, that it is to appease some red tops.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1652825
PaulB wrote:What will be the likely impact on UK organisations providing training for commercial licences.

For example, if someone is part way through their ATPLs but won’t finish until after Brexit, what is the current state of play? (Accepting that the situation may be completely different next week!)


Who knows!

As I am not longer doing medicals full time I have less of an insight in that part of the market but until last year I would say that about 40% of ATPL students for the big schools were from the rest of the EU and I hazard a guess they are seen a reduction in interest with all this uncertainty.

No doubt some will have made or make provisions to carry on somewhere in the rest of EASA land, but all the revenue and associated taxes* will therefore not be spent in the UK anymore.

*Every full time ATPL student will spend the best part of 120k so that is 24k in missed VAT alone. There are about 3k initial Class 1 examinations in the UK per annum.
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By Lockhaven
#1652828
PaulB wrote:What will be the likely impact on UK organisations providing training for commercial licences.

For example, if someone is part way through their ATPLs but won’t finish until after Brexit, what is the current state of play? (Accepting that the situation may be completely different next week!)


Students will just move to another EASA state to finish their training, compared to the amount of commercial training that is done in the rest of Europe what is done in the UK is small drop in the ocean.
By proteus
#1652829
I'm not currently into looking at flight training other than FAA items. so am not up to speed on this.

Can an EASA licence be gained outside of the great european empire ? such as the JAA licence being done in the states beforehand.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1652831
Lockhaven wrote:Students will just move to another EASA state to finish their training, compared to the amount of commercial training that is done in the rest of Europe what is done in the UK is small drop in the ocean.


Are you sure?

Where are the Continental equivalents of CAE, CTC etc?
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By Lockhaven
#1652834
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
Lockhaven wrote:Students will just move to another EASA state to finish their training, compared to the amount of commercial training that is done in the rest of Europe what is done in the UK is small drop in the ocean.


Are you sure?

Where are the Continental equivalents of CAE, CTC etc?


CAE / FSI are involved with aircraft type rating courses and military training in centres worldwide and basic EASA commercial pilot training but not to the same degree, there is one CAE and FSI centre in the UK offering initial and recurrent bizjet courses and CAE Oxford for basic training.

CTC is just an airline sponsored training school for the benefit airlines such as Ryanair and Easyjet who push their own paying customers through the system with a few self sponsored pilots with mortgage size bank loans or wealthy parents tagging along.

There are many training schools around Europe offering basic commercial pilot training to gain a licence even in Latvia, Poland etc were the cost of flying training is vastly reduced compared to that in the UK.
Last edited by Lockhaven on Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By SteveC
#1652835
Lockhaven wrote:
PaulB wrote:What will be the likely impact on UK organisations providing training for commercial licences.

For example, if someone is part way through their ATPLs but won’t finish until after Brexit, what is the current state of play? (Accepting that the situation may be completely different next week!)


Students will just move to another EASA state to finish their training, compared to the amount of commercial training that is done in the rest of Europe what is done in the UK is small drop in the ocean.


You have very little idea of the scale of UK training in the EASA scheme of things. The UK CAA is the largest certifying NAA of the entire block. It is the only NAA that trains outside of its national boundary through CAA International and its reach is across Europe, Middle and the Far East. As a school we operate in 8 different countries and candidates used to come to us specifically because a UK CAA issued EASA licence was the most desirable thing to have as the UKs reputation for quality was recognised world wide. We are already seeing students backing off because they do not want to end up with a non EASA licence. And we are seeing those already mid way through panicking and asking for other options for the state of issue. We are currently looking at registering as a direct EASA ATO under grandfather rights to see if we can preserve our EASA training status but it does not resolve which state of issue we can use for the actual licence issue at the moment.
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By proteus
#1652836
CAE claims to have 50+ training locations all over the globe, perhaps they have some representation on the continent already.

I will admit I've not had any real interest in the pilot factories though, my view is certainly skewed by being a PPL, who is considering going down the FAA CPL, and IR route just as they seem sensible steps and achievable without a massive waste of money.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1652838
proteus wrote:
I will admit I've not had any real interest in the pilot factories though, my view is certainly skewed by being a PPL, who is considering going down the FAA CPL, and IR route just as they seem sensible steps and achievable without a massive waste of money.


An FAA CPL/IR is great fun, but for flying commercially in Europe not much better than a chocolate teapot.
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By SteveC
#1652840
proteus wrote:
SteveC wrote: the UKs reputation for quality was recognised world wide.


Perhaps this will continue in the future.



The quality won't change, but who wants it will change and as statistics are already showing its for the negative. Unless we are part of EASA we can't compete in Europe.
By proteus
#1652841
But the cost of getting a EASA CPL / IR is significantly more expensive,

Yet before you were bemoaning the extra cost of having to get extra licences / local ones based off other ICAO licences pre JAA / EASA .

EASA has added a huge amount of extra cost to many elements. Why should it not be possible to get a one man freelance instructor to train a ppl student in an interesting aeroplane without being part of a larger organisation?
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By Lockhaven
#1652842
SteveC wrote:
Lockhaven wrote:
PaulB wrote:What will be the likely impact on UK organisations providing training for commercial licences.

For example, if someone is part way through their ATPLs but won’t finish until after Brexit, what is the current state of play? (Accepting that the situation may be completely different next week!)


Students will just move to another EASA state to finish their training, compared to the amount of commercial training that is done in the rest of Europe what is done in the UK is small drop in the ocean.


We are already seeing students backing off because they do not want to end up with a non EASA licence. And we are seeing those already mid way through panicking and asking for other options for the state of issue. We are currently looking at registering as a direct EASA ATO under grandfather rights to see if we can preserve our EASA training status but it does not resolve which state of issue we can use for the actual licence issue at the moment.


Then all those Europeans who have gained a UK EASA licence will have to change to their own National EASA licence after Brexit as their licence will no longer be valid outside the UK.

But we have seen all this hysteria before when progressing through CAA licences, JAA, JAR then EASA and possibly now back to CAA, the world didn't end then and it won't end now.
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By SteveC
#1652843
proteus wrote:But the cost of getting a EASA CPL / IR is significantly more expensive,

Yet before you were bemoaning the extra cost of having to get extra licences / local ones based off other ICAO licences pre JAA / EASA .

EASA has added a huge amount of extra cost to many elements. Why should it not be possible to get a one man freelance instructor to train a ppl student in an interesting aeroplane without being part of a larger organisation?


You are off track from the original discussion which just muddies the water. Your question has been asked many times and explained many times on other threads.
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