Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
  • 1
  • 13
  • 14
  • 15
  • 16
  • 17
By Mike Tango
#1648159
p.s. technology has been going to decimate the controller workforce for decades, so far it has only managed to inflict a minor flesh wound.

That's not to say it won't achieve a proper culling going forward, just that I wouldn't believe any suggested timescales you might hear. Historically all predictions of what it will achieve technically and how many staff it will get rid of have thus far been a bit pants.
By ratman
#1648178
rodan wrote:
oakworth wrote:Maybe the CAA should up their LARS payments and make it more lucrative for the airports.

This. If you have a privatised and fragmented ATC system then it will increasingly prioritise the requirements of the airports and CAT that pay for it, and eventually other tasks must be mandated and paid for from somewhere else.

There are fewer military units and small airports with radar in Class G in whose interests it is to provide LARS. There are fewer medium airports with the spare capacity to do it, and the money from the CAA is nowhere near the amount required to provide a dedicated console and controller. Something has to give.

Who should pay for LARS and how? Who should provide it?


More ill informed comments, the Regulator does not funds LARS.
GonzoEGLL, AlanC liked this
User avatar
By rodan
#1648180
The DfT then, if it makes you happy.

Now give me five minutes and I’ll go off and rethink the entire post, since this obviously changes everything...
By G-JWTP
#1648182
GonzoEGLL wrote:
G-JWTP wrote:
PaulB wrote:
So what was their rationale?



We were told that there wasn't enough applicants of a suitable skillset.
Qualifications were not as important as aptitude.
To many people do not think that ATC as a career.
Higher earnings elsewhere, especially for trainees.
Job is not 'sexy' ( my paraphrase).
No body wants to do shift work especially the young who have social lives.
Perception of a high stress environment.

These were the main ones.

G-JWTP


Hmm, I think we’ve answered subtly different exam questions. These are reasons why recruitment is challenging, not why there’s a nationwide, and indeed global, staffing shortage.

To be fair there are genuine issues there....trainee pay among them. However, I’d argue ‘‘twas errr thus. I was on the recruitment team from 2002 to 2009, and apart from the relative increase and decrease of initial trainee pay, nothing else has changed since then.

If you care to read the NATS Interviews thread in another PPlace, which has over 10k posts, in mid October the Jan/Feb courses were full, so I don’t think getting enough people through the selection process is a bottleneck.



I don't even believe to know or guess the issues.

My experience has always to in the first instance to improve the pay and working conditions of those already in post. This stems the general out flow and improves that intangible factor ' staff morale'.

Regular training cycles then inproves the numbers over a much shorter period.

As 'rikur' aspires to, a greater understanding of the work life balance is becoming more important to most other issues.

If budgets are being squeezed from both ends then eventually something will give.

Generally it's staff.

G-JWTP
GonzoEGLL liked this
By oakworth
#1648187
ratman wrote:
rodan wrote:
oakworth wrote:Maybe the CAA should up their LARS payments and make it more lucrative for the airports.

This. If you have a privatised and fragmented ATC system then it will increasingly prioritise the requirements of the airports and CAT that pay for it, and eventually other tasks must be mandated and paid for from somewhere else.

There are fewer military units and small airports with radar in Class G in whose interests it is to provide LARS. There are fewer medium airports with the spare capacity to do it, and the money from the CAA is nowhere near the amount required to provide a dedicated console and controller. Something has to give.

Who should pay for LARS and how? Who should provide it?


More ill informed comments, the Regulator does not funds LARS.


I'm willing to be educated. Who funds LARS? For a bonus point, explain the link between LARS and BREXIT.
User avatar
By GonzoEGLL
#1648188
The DfT funds* the country-wide scheme, and NATS En-Route Ltd (NERL) fund Farnborough North and East sectors through their income.

*The sum, when divided by the participant units, is generally accepted not to fully cover the cost of the service provision for the promulgated hours. I’ve heard it unofficially from one unit that it effectively pays for one controller (not one controller position, but one controller from a complement of 25(ish)).
User avatar
By Dave Phillips
#1648192
DfT funds a portion of LARS from the en-route charges received through Eurocontrol. In essence, the en-route (CAS) stuff pays for some off the off-route (LARS) services.
User avatar
By Gertie
#1648195
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Mike Tango wrote:Folk are calling up Brizzle Radar, aren't they?


Make sure you get your VRPs right.


Hmm. Just one of those I'd disagree with - we used to catch sticklebacks and newts in the pond at Eastville Park - next door to Fishponds, was good enough for us.
User avatar
By GolfHotel
#1649204
Not wishing to reserect the this threads contentious side at all but just an update

I flew dunks to Gloucester today. The direct route goes almost directly over Bristol. I called for a transit very late as I’d been listening to Yeovil who had traffic near me. I first got a standby, and of course the total waste of time that is the remain clear blurb. During the standby period the controller was giving instructions and clearances to other aircraft. As I was about to turn to avoid controlled airspace. The controller came back to me and very quickly cleared me straight through. Although I was told pass to the left of BRI.

That’s when I made a mistake. I’ve never flown with reference to the BRI and I misread the map. It was clearly shown with a little arrow. I missed the arrow and didn’t realise it was on the airfield. A silly simple mistake. As it happened I got resume own NAV before overflying the field so I don’t think I technically made a bo bo. But I passed the right hand side of the BRI.

It was then the controller asked if I knew my position relative to the BRI, and I realised my mistake. Anyway she couldn’t have been nicer about it, and even explained her only concern was that my NAV equipment was working ok. I even got offered a traffic service as I left CAS and a handover to Gloucester.

So whoever the controller was I got a first class service today, for which I am appreciative.
Mike Tango, Paul_Sengupta, Waveflyer and 16 others liked this
User avatar
By rikur_
#1649639
Boxkite wrote:To the locals, the BRI means a particular Bristol hospital.

Ah.... Blackpool used to have a similar problem with 'the tower' .... so for ATC purposes, the tall tourist attraction on the sea front is now 'tall tower', so as not to be confused with 'the tower' on the airfield.
User avatar
By GolfHotel
#1649645
Boxkite wrote:To the locals, the BRI means a particular Bristol hospital.


That was my first thought. I was trying to work out how I could spot it through the clouds.
  • 1
  • 13
  • 14
  • 15
  • 16
  • 17