Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Mike Tango
#1647821
Maybe UK ATC needed to follow their French counterparts and strike every few weeks, then perhaps there’d be enough money in the pot to pay for the much desired but ever elusive Air Traffic Nirvanaland of free and bountiful Rolls Royce services for all and sundry whilst maintaining old skool working practices ensuring a plentiful supply of able bodies to dispense them.

For what it’s worth, circa 1980 was the last time there was any significant industrial action by UK ATC staff.

And everyone knows the path UK ATC has taken between then and now.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1647822
I raised this with ATC at Leeds on a tower tour, and was given an explanation that it's part of some agreement between Leeds/Linton/Warton/Teesside that Leeds pass-on traffic north or east of Leeds zone to the relevant LARS unit. The lack of handovers was put down to the difficulty in getting through to Linton for them to accept a handover - albeit I note that Teesside and Warton will often be able and willing to coordinate a handover to Linton.

North West of Leeds you will get dumped on London info, and south of Leeds onto anyone they think might have you!
Flying the other day I heard a pilot requesting a basic service OCAS being referred to Leeming. He pointed out that he would be skirting the zone boundary and wanted to remain with Leeds. He was told that it was “policy” to be referred to Linton/Leeming regardless. He neatly sidestepped the problem by requesting a zone transit instead!
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By chevvron
#1647831
Mike Tango wrote:
And everyone knows the path UK ATC has taken between then and now.

Yeah, somebody said 'our sky is not for sale' but it got sold anyway leading to 'industrial' practices like voluntary redundancy (VR) and golden handshakes for the ones on higher salaries and a consequent lack of experienced staff.
The managers nowadays seem totally unaware it can take 12 months or so from a controller leaving the college to get their first 'certificate of competence' (used to be called 'validation') and hence control without an OJTI because the VRs are going before their replacements are trained.
By oakworth
#1647843
TC_LTN wrote:
oakworth wrote:Out of interest, how many of you have taken the time to speak to Bristol?


As suggested much earlier in the thread;
,a phone call to the Watch Manager, after the flight, followed up by the submission of the on-line form, depending on your view following a chat, is the correct way to deal with this issue


That's why I asked the question, didn't see many responses.
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1647853
flybymike wrote:
I raised this with ATC at Leeds on a tower tour, and was given an explanation that it's part of some agreement between Leeds/Linton/Warton/Teesside that Leeds pass-on traffic north or east of Leeds zone to the relevant LARS unit. The lack of handovers was put down to the difficulty in getting through to Linton for them to accept a handover - albeit I note that Teesside and Warton will often be able and willing to coordinate a handover to Linton.

North West of Leeds you will get dumped on London info, and south of Leeds onto anyone they think might have you!
Flying the other day I heard a pilot requesting a basic service OCAS being referred to Leeming. He pointed out that he would be skirting the zone boundary and wanted to remain with Leeds. He was told that it was “policy” to be referred to Linton/Leeming regardless. He neatly sidestepped the problem by requesting a zone transit instead!

[thread drift .... NW of Leeds I always go to Warton during the week, and very happy with them.
South of Leeds I usually find that Doncaster will provide a service, despite not being a LARS unit (albeit they are also very eager to send me on my way to Linton once northbound over the M62.) ]
Putting aside issues of handover vs dumping ..... personally I think it is probably helpful to have the concept of just one unit covering a given area, rather than having Leeds working some traffic and Linton working others .... it's just at the weekend when a lot of people don't seem to realise that Teesside provide a LARS service all the way down to the Humberside LARS, and as you say, nothing other than London Info / Scottish NW of Leeds
By PaulB
#1647854
Dave W wrote:Great, @jacekowski - thank you. That seems pretty unequivocal.

For others' info:

CAP 725 - Airspace Change Process Guidance Document
CAP1616 - Airspace Design: Guidance on the regulatory process for changing airspace design including community engagement requirements


So rather than individuals speaking to the watch manager (or whoever) and completing on-line forms (which may or may not be read) should AOPA or Airspace4All be taking this up because on the face of it there does seem to be a material change in the management of the airspace under discussion.
By oakworth
#1647857
Why waste everyone's time when a conversation with the people who actually know may either solve or explain it. It's almost certainly the quickest way to get a resolution.
Anything that ultimately involves the CAA will take years.
By PaulB
#1647874
I'm not sure individual comments will have any influence. Why would they?

Perhaps one of the aviation magazines could approach Bristol for comment?

:-)
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By TC_LTN
#1647880
PaulB wrote:I'm not sure individual comments will have any influence. Why would they?

Perhaps one of the aviation magazines could approach Bristol for comment?

:-)


Individuals do make a huge difference. After all it was an individual's experience that kicked off this thread with relatively few other contributions from people that had actually attempted a Bristol transit, with good and bad experiences.

It is always good to talk and those people that feel less than satisfied with the service they received (not every other opinionated contributor) should give the Watch Manager a call and seek to understand the unit's point of view about their particular circumstance. If, after that conversation, the individual remains dissatisfied then the submission of an on-line FCS 1251 form will attract the attention of the Regulator particularly if a blip in the number of reports is seen against a particular unit.
By PaulB
#1647883
TC_LTN wrote:
PaulB wrote:I'm not sure individual comments will have any influence. Why would they?

Perhaps one of the aviation magazines could approach Bristol for comment?

:-)


Individuals do make a huge difference. After all it was an individual's experience that kicked off this thread with relatively few other contributions from people that had actually attempted a Bristol transit, with good and bad experiences.

It is always good to talk and those people that feel less than satisfied with the service they received (not every other opinionated contributor) should give the Watch Manager a call and seek to understand the unit's point of view about their particular circumstance. If, after that conversation, the individual remains dissatisfied then the submission of an on-line FCS 1251 form will attract the attention of the Regulator particularly if a blip in the number of reports is seen against a particular unit.


Perhaps those who've been refused should do that and see what difference it makes? I suspect that half a dozen complaints will make little difference at all.... let's see.

(I've only ever had great service from Bristol (both as a LARS unit and when I requested a transit) so have no personal axe to grind.
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By The Admin Team
FLYER Team Member  FLYER Team Member
#1647890
I have just split off some posts stemming from an unpleasant and unsubstantiated accusation against an organisation, which breached the forum Code of Conduct.

Please don't do that.



Whilst I'm here...
This is a more than usually fractious thread, and we've had rather to many of those recently. It would be great if everybody would try to accept others' points of view and work towards having a discussion rather than an argument. After all, we come here for amusement and information, don't we?

Whether flyer or ANSP employee, out in the real world everybody is usually trying to do their best. Generalising and throwing rocks helps nobody.
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By TC_LTN
#1647934
The Admin Team wrote:Whether flyer or ANSP employee, out in the real world everybody is usually trying to do their best. Generalising and throwing rocks helps nobody.


As a current ANSP employee, I assume the comment is directed at me. I believe that I have contributed positively and robustly with what a believe, indeed know to be an effective way to manage the type of scenario described by the OP. I have also pointed out the genuine safety impact of some other courses of action being proposed by others. If that contribution is regarded as a generalisation or the throwing of rocks then I apologise but I will not hold back in articulating the correct way to behave in a safety critical environment.

Probably time to leave the Forum to the retirees until I am brave enough to join their ranks with more time and energy.
AlanM liked this
By oakworth
#1647937
TC_LTN wrote:
The Admin Team wrote:Whether flyer or ANSP employee, out in the real world everybody is usually trying to do their best. Generalising and throwing rocks helps nobody.


As a current ANSP employee, I assume the comment is directed at me. I believe that I have contributed positively and robustly with what a believe, indeed know to be an effective way to manage the type of scenario described by the OP. I have also pointed out the genuine safety impact of some other courses of action being proposed by others. If that contribution is regarded as a generalisation or the throwing of rocks then I apologise but I will not hold back in articulating the correct way to behave in a safety critical environment.

Probably time to leave the Forum to the retirees until I am brave enough to join their ranks with more time and energy.


As a 'neutral' with a foot in more than one camp, I'd be surprised if your comments were a problem. Everything comes back to airspace and it's a very sensitive subject.
AlanM liked this
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