Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1646490
What I have learnt in life prior to launching any legal challenge is that relationship building between the aggrieved parties goes a massive long way.

From what I’ve seen since the beginning of Farnborough’s ACP there was never any to begin with, and almost nobody had any interest in building one either.

I wish LGS all the best, but I think they’d be in for some nasty surprises. I really do hope I am proved wrong though!
#1646494
Any LoAs are damage limitation at best, talk of the majority of gliders being non radio is nonsense.


No they are not. They should be a fundamental part of the airspace change process to ensure safe, reasonable and equitable use of airspace. IMHO any ACP should not be approved unless appropriate LoAs are in place. If, of course, one party refuses to engage in the negotiation/establishment of an LoA then it would be very difficult to demonstrate that they are serious about the safe management of a volume of airspace.
#1646526
TC_LTN wrote:If, of course, one party refuses to engage in the negotiation/establishment of an LoA then it would be very difficult to demonstrate that they are serious about the safe management of a volume of airspace.


This is an interesting one. How do you deal with an ACP that has a full set of LOA's (including other GA units) but a single GA airfield who refuse to engage?
#1646541
They have radar that lets them do SRAs but which isn’t really suitable for providing any other service, to the best of my knowledge. TDM, what say you?

Paul_Sengupta wrote:What about Lasham applying for their own Class D? They probably have many more movements than Farnborough and they have airliners going in and out. They have Radar to control it.

Make sure it goes over the top of Farnborough.

:clown:
#1646552
Mike Tango wrote:They have radar that lets them do SRAs but which isn’t really suitable for providing any other service, to the best of my knowledge. TDM, what say you?

Paul_Sengupta wrote:What about Lasham applying for their own Class D? They probably have many more movements than Farnborough and they have airliners going in and out. They have Radar to control it.

Make sure it goes over the top of Farnborough.

:clown:

It's only a 424; originally developed from a shipboard radar and only meant for half mile SRAs at best; I believe Lasham can only do 2 mile ones however due to a lack of permanent markers; you need bracketing markers and touchdown markers permanently visible for half mile SRAs.
At present, they have an LoA with Farnborough whereby Farnborough vectors inbounds towards the final approach track then hands them over to Lasham Radar which, by the way, is nothing to do with Lasham Gliding Society.
Last I heard was that the airliners going in for maintenance could only have their engines running on the runway, they're not allowed to taxy to/from it; have to be towed, which means they sometimes occupy the runway for long periods during which LGS can't use it.
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#1646579
Mike Tango wrote:They have radar that lets them do SRAs but which isn’t really suitable for providing any other service, to the best of my knowledge. TDM, what say you?

I say: "Negative, no ANSP approval, AGCS only"
chevvron wrote:they have an LoA with Farnborough whereby Farnborough vectors inbounds towards the final approach track then hands them over to Lasham Radar

Not so, for the above reason.
chevvron wrote:the airliners going in for maintenance could only have their engines running on the runway, they're not allowed to taxy to/from it; have to be towed

Applies to jets with under-slung engines only.
e.g. B727 may taxi under own power but tow-in preferred for H&S/FOD reasons. Sometimes B722 will taxi out.
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#1646603
I'm very pleased to see Lasham doing this.

As an ex member from 15 years ago they have made huge strides in making gliding more 'professional' and I mean that with no disrespect to any historic Lasham employees or pilots - if a previous generation hadn't thrown themselves into the place they wouldn't be there today. (Wally Khans book about Lasham early days shows up some of the strings pulled ! ( Wally was an amazing gent who taught me a lot & scared the life out of me when I asked him to sign off the barograph trace of my silver 'c' ….))

I seem to recall even when I was flying there they do have some fairly well established & knowledgeable 'legal eagles' ……. and must assume this is still the case.

Over the years they have faced lots of hurdles - legal & otherwise) and for sake of setting a legal precedent I hope they succeed in keeping a little bit of the world suitably 'uncontrolled' …...
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#1649081
chevvron wrote:Last I heard was that the airliners going in for maintenance could only have their engines running on the runway, they're not allowed to taxy to/from it; have to be towed, which means they sometimes occupy the runway for long periods during which LGS can't use it.


Just to clarify, the long period you mention is very rarely more than 30 minutes at the most, and everyone cooperates really well to minimise any down time on the days they use it. The tow (if ever required) from the end of the runway to the maintenance facilities is all of about 100 yards.
#1655412
Lasham granted judicial review of Farnborough airspace decision

Flyer News wrote:Lasham Gliding Society’s application to the High Court for leave to apply for a Judicial Review has been granted by a High Court judge.

In October this year, following the CAA’s decision in July to implement a large amount of controlled airspace for TAG Farnborough Airport in the busy south-east of England, Lasham filed a claim in the High Court for leave to apply for a Judicial Review of what it believes is a flawed and unlawful decision.

The High Court has given permission for the case to go ahead because it considers that the claim meets the threshold of arguability.

Lasham believes the disproportionately large amount of controlled airspace would have a significant and negative impact on safety, and on Lasham’s operations and financial health.

To help fight this case, Lasham has set up a fighting fund and asks all those supporting it to contribute. The target for the fund is £100,000 and so far, £42,000 has been raised. For details click here.

Lasham is probably the largest gliding operation in the world and since 1951 has built itself into one of the best organisations for training pilots and as a world-class centre for recreational aviation. It also the base for several other aviation-related commercial operations.
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#1655576
Paul_Sengupta wrote:What about Lasham applying for their own Class D? They probably have many more movements than Farnborough and they have airliners going in and out. They have Radar to control it.

Make sure it goes over the top of Farnborough.

:clown:

Granted they launch hundreds of gliders per day both winch and aero tow, but jet movements are maybe one per day during a busy period against Farnborough's 100+ per day apart from the month of August when bizjet movements slacken off; as this is when Lasham is busier, why not agree some form of airspace 'sharing'. :naughty:
#1655649
From a recent press release:

For the January to September period, Farnborough saw a 15 percent increase in movements compared to the same period last year. This reflected a steady increase in large intercontinental business jets, rather than “bizliners.” O’Reilly said the number of these visiting has leveled out, though at the current rate, the airport is planning even more expansion for large entourages requiring more passenger-lounge space.

That 15 percent is equivalent to more than 3,000 movements and means the yearly total could top 30,000 and even approach 31,000–breaking the movement record that was set before the 2008 financial crisis. Last year the total reached 27,005, against a limit of 50,000 set by local government. In addition, the airport saw its “busiest day ever” earlier this year, with 188 movements (meaning the total of arrivals and departures).


Some interesting stuff but notably that they still have loads of capacity to offer to the rest of GA.

Seems a shame they price themselves out of the small GA Market.

We are clearly of no financial, social or political interest to them - shame.
#1655659
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Some interesting stuff but notably that they still have loads of capacity to offer to the rest of GA.

Seems a shame they price themselves out of the small GA Market.

We are clearly of no financial, social or political interest to them - shame.

When I was a controller there and suggested using the 'spare' capacity for a private/recreational 'no frills' level of handling I was told to MYOB.