Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1655660
On Glide wrote:Where do you get 100+ per day from?

It was often that sort of number on weekdays when I retired back in 2008; there were greater restrictions on weekend/PH operations in those days so not so many movements.
#1655664
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:From a recent press release:

the airport is planning even more expansion for large entourages requiring more passenger-lounge space.

Before people start talking in terms of creating 'another Gatwick type operation', as far as I'm aware TAG and the local planning authority will continue to ban scheduled passenger flights, inclusive tour flights and bulk freight flights.
#1655856
chevvron wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Some interesting stuff but notably that they still have loads of capacity to offer to the rest of GA.

Seems a shame they price themselves out of the small GA Market.

We are clearly of no financial, social or political interest to them - shame.

When I was a controller there and suggested using the 'spare' capacity for a private/recreational 'no frills' level of handling I was told to MYOB.

I should point out that the above happened before TAG bought the FBO from Farnborough Business Aviation, who were actually BAE; when Gerald Carroll (the original operator) left the country taking all his money with him, BAE stepped in with a 'temporary' rescue. I never tried suggesting it to TAG as I didn't want to get my fingers burnt again.
Last edited by chevvron on Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1655896
The Business Development Fantasy yet again.

Someone at Farnborough clearly believes that they can significantly increase (nearly double, to require a lifting of the movements cap which presumably they have capacity to handle) their share of the uber-wealthy biz jet customer market. This at a time when Oxford and Biggin are both trying hard to eat a bigger share of Farnborough's lunch. And at a time when some sort of downturn is definitely on the way.... the housing market has cooled right off, everyone's getting twitchy about Brexit, we've been on a reasonable upward curve for a good 8 years or so now..... it might not be a crash but there will definitely be a downturn.

I honestly don't know how people who confidently predict such amazing success in the most unlikely circumstances manage to look at themselves in the mirror every day.
TexasUK liked this
#1656274
https://www.flyer.co.uk/lasham-granted- ... -decision/ .....already mentioned.

This a huge step forward for all of us. If Lasham mount a successful campaign it will effect every future application and the decision making.

It’s constantly being suggested that we all join one or other of the organisations also fighting, LAA, AOPA, etc and the reluctance to do so with the ongoing annual costs is understandable.

At the least, if we all sent a one off donation of only £10 or £20 to support the challenge, it could make a huge difference to our future for years to come.

Great opportunity to make a difference.
TexasUK, ChampChump, Flyin'Dutch' and 2 others liked this
#1656290
chevvron wrote:
On Glide wrote:Where do you get 100+ per day from?

http://www.farnborough.proboards.com
Has a daily update on movements at both Farnborough and Lasham.


Unless I just don't understand what I'm looking at or don't understand the format it is in, that looks like a lot less than 100 a day reported.

From TAG's own numbers of 2000 in January 2018 - https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tag-farnborough-records-largest-annual-movement-tall-445544/ (just the first one that came up from a brief google) that still is only around 60 a day, and the 2017 total was way less.

Do you think you might be including the airshow numbers as well?

I realise there will be a desire to inflate the numbers to support the airspace grab, but let's just deal with facts, rather than 'alternative facts' :)

Has anyone got a definitive source and count please?
#1656301
defcribed wrote:The Business Development Fantasy yet again.

Someone at Farnborough clearly believes that they can significantly increase (nearly double, to require a lifting of the movements cap which presumably they have capacity to handle) their share of the uber-wealthy biz jet customer market. This at a time when Oxford and Biggin are both trying hard to eat a bigger share of Farnborough's lunch. And at a time when some sort of downturn is definitely on the way.... the housing market has cooled right off, everyone's getting twitchy about Brexit, we've been on a reasonable upward curve for a good 8 years or so now..... it might not be a crash but there will definitely be a downturn.

I honestly don't know how people who confidently predict such amazing success in the most unlikely circumstances manage to look at themselves in the mirror every day.


Maybe they don't have reflections.....
stickandrudderman liked this
#1656343
TexasUK wrote:[
Unless I just don't understand what I'm looking at or don't understand the format it is in, that looks like a lot less than 100 a day reported.

From TAG's own numbers of 2000 in January 2018 - https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tag-farnborough-records-largest-annual-movement-tall-445544/ (just the first one that came up from a brief google) that still is only around 60 a day, and the 2017 total was way less.

Do you think you might be including the airshow numbers as well?

I realise there will be a desire to inflate the numbers to support the airspace grab, but let's just deal with facts, rather than 'alternative facts' :)

Has anyone got a definitive source and count please?

January is often a 'slow' month as is August as I mentioned.
TAG are very careful not to include airshow movements in their own figures, nor do they include Farnborough Aero Club movements, Royal Flights, specifically military movements and aircraft carrying out practice instrument approaches.
The number of aircraft in the reports on the website are merely those observed by the reporter; he doesn't sit all day logging movements hence this will only give you some idea of the numbers.
#1656347
OK that makes more sense thanks.

They reported 27,000 for 2017 (73 a day as an all year average). Getting to 100 a day (36,500 a year) is quite an increase in movements, be interesting to see if they have actually achieved that in 2018.

Still way below the 50,000 limit they have, as I believe it has been for some time now.
#1656349
The most important issue here is that the Court took the view that Lasham's criticism of the process was sufficiently well based to create an arguable legal case. This has profound implications for the CAA's approach to airspace allocation and management.

It behoves us all to pump whatever we can afford into the fighting fund in a display of enlightened self interest.
TexasUK liked this
#1656359
johnm wrote:The most important issue here is that the Court took the view that Lasham's criticism of the process was sufficiently well based to create an arguable legal case. This has profound implications for the CAA's approach to airspace allocation and management.

It behoves us all to pump whatever we can afford into the fighting fund in a display of enlightened self interest.


I agree, there is an important point here. We have two busy GA airfields, so there ought to be a balance between them, rather than favouring the needs of one over the other.

As a comparison with TAG figures, for 2017 Lasham reported gliding statistics were 15,283 winch launches and 8,459 Aero-tow launches.

In "movement" terms (as i understand it) one winch launch is 2 movements, and an A/T is 4 movements (Tug and Glider), so that is over 64,000 movements per year. This ignores Jets landing for maintenance, TMG flying and the odd light aircraft, glider or helicopter visiting or based there.

Of course a very small number of glider flights land elsewhere but given an average or 260-300 flying days a year (due to weather) that's over 200 movements/flying day on average, although of course with major variations through the year.
TexasUK liked this
#1656369
The reason the DfT/CAA developed CAP1616 was to insure against Judicial Reviews cropping up in the future.

I'm on Gateway 2 work with a client and it's clear that the need to engage and consult widely affords the decision makers a clean pair of hands if challenged on process. For Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick and the likes of Luton this helps ensure transparency, which will give GA the voice it feels it didn't get at Exeter and Doncaster/Finningley etc.

However, in the case of RNAV(GNSS) IAP rollout to the CAP1122 type GA aerodromes the burden of proof feels too heavy.
#1656430
TexasUK wrote:OK that makes more sense thanks.

They reported 27,000 for 2017 (73 a day as an all year average). Getting to 100 a day (36,500 a year) is quite an increase in movements, be interesting to see if they have actually achieved that in 2018.

Still way below the 50,000 limit they have, as I believe it has been for some time now.

The 50,000 pa limit was only approved by the local authority about 3 years ago; prior to that it was 28,000 pa which is very close to the 27,000 for 2017 which was a non airshow year.
The 100 per day is only an average assuming 7 day operation however prior to the increase in total movements, TAG were only allowed 4,500 pa out of that 28,000 at weekends and bank holidays and there's still a restriction on w/e and PH movements but I can't remember what it is so you should always expect more movements on weekdays!
#1656432
I found some Farnborough planning history here:

https://www.rushmoor.gov.uk/article/256 ... ng-history

Permitted movements grew from 28,000 per annum in 2010 to 50,000 by 2019.

Actual movements grew from 23,500 in 2010 to 26,200 in 2017.

However the minimum landing/handling fees at Farnborough have remained pretty much the same even when the new capacity was made available.