[mo0g]

What we have here from one person in particular is threadcrapping because they dont like PAW.

I would have raised the same issues on any EC 'system' which uses the same operating principles - they are not unique to PAW.

You seem to have forgotten what this thread started about, and what your first response to that was.

You are not just being critical of this EC system, you are stating, although repeatedly refusing to be pinned down on what exactly you mean, that PAW users are subject to "Human Factors" in a unique way. Probably because you know any other EC system which uses your preferred operating principles are subject to exactly the same Human Factors.

Am I clear enough now? What Human Factors, and how is a PAW user at a greater risk of an accident than a SkyEcho user of an accident BECAUSE of them?

[mo0g]

Right, I think I have the "Human Factor" deemed life threateningly important which afflicts PAW, that flyinDutch is going on about.

OGN coverage for flarm targets.

Hands up any PAW user who thinks that PAW will pick up every glider, or every other aircraft out there?

If I am flying along and I see 10 glider targets in SD via PAW, in an area I am flying into, I would avoid the area. If I am flying along and I visually see a bunch of gliders in the distance, I would avoid the area.
If I see a bunch of gliders either via PAW or my eyes I would not assume there arent more gliders, or other aircraft out there.

I assume I am not alone, so Flyin'Dutch, please explain EXACTLY the dangerous scenario you envisage from a PAW users moving from an area with OGN coverage to one without?

[mo0g]

People flying so little that this small difference would be the reason not to go for an ADSB solution are much better served by not spending a penny on EC at all and spend it on flying more so their stick and rudder skills are honed and kept better up to date.

Far more people come to grief from accidents due to lacking those* than from a mid air collision!

*fact alert for @mo0g - read any AAIB report

Want a charity bet that I can't find an AAIB midair report which doesnt conclude lack of ADSB (specifically) conspicuousness was the cause of the accident? What a ridiculous comment. They usually say EC would have helped 'see and avoid', and may go on to say they recommend ADSB based EC, but that doesn't mean the accident was caused by the lack or ADSB or critically that another form of EC may have helped in that scenario.

[gaznav]

@gaznav

Interesting that you mention the TN72 GPS TABS source. I’m unsure how the TABS system differs from Mode S ES, but I note see from EASA NPA 2018-10 concerning CS-STAN Iss 3, the following;

CS-SC002c — Installation of Mode S elementary surveillance equipment (amended)
This SC has been amended to clearly allow for the individual installation of an altitude encoder. Additionally, the purpose of this SC has been expanded to further clarify that the installation of traffic awareness beacon system (TABS) equipment by means of this SC is not sufficient to permit the pilot to fly into transponder mandatory zones (TMZs).

I don’t really get this - to do TN72 TABS then you have to have a transponder, hence you would be able to go into a TMZ. I’m obviously missing something?

[malcolmfrost]

I know I said I was out but.....
At the very beginning, I said I was flying along and happened to look at my iPad. I wasn't mesmerised by the pretty pictures, if anything my lookout has improved massively with SD. I fully accept though that others may not be the same.
If we rewind about 5 years, there was lots of excitement about the CAA possibly introducing a low cost portable conspicuity device. We know where that ended up. In the meantime Pilotaware came into the market from small beginnings. At the moment there doesn't appear to be any "perfect" system that will see everything. A lot of solutions are quite expensive, to say "only the cost of a few hours flying" isn't going to wash with a community that begrudges spending money on landing fees and overpriced burgers! They also ignore the substantial number of pilots that don't own their own aircraft, or flying schools that are struggling to make ends meet.
Pilotaware isn't perfect, but it has given many of us a partial solution that is portable and reasonably cheap. Quite alot of bangs for the bucks as my experience shows. It may well be an interim until something similar is done with ADSB, which may require a partial subsidy as with 8.33. I still think it would need to be in the £200 bracket though.

[gaznav]

I reckon the most likely partial subsidy will be the provision of free weather via UAT. That would be a good carrot for adoption. However to expect a SIL>=1 ADS-B Out and a 1090 ADS-B In and 978 UAT for £200 is probably not that realistic in my humble opinion. The forum in the past was asking for sub £500 LPATS and that is probably the price point for something that has some form of certification standard.

[cockney steve]

@malcolmfrost said

I wasn't mesmerised by the pretty pictures,

If you had been, I wouldn't hold out any hope for those thousands of adopters of GPS and "glass-panel" displays with all their pretty colours, magenta lines, moving maps and artificial terrain displays. Of course, there are those who can't afford such distractions....... they just have to make do with the pretty blue and brown one with a miniature depiction of wings, hopefully nearly in alignment with the horizontal join between brown and blue. Then , of course, to avoid boredom, there's that bobbing and weaving display, the Magnetic compass.....only takes a microsecond glance to determine it's excursion and assimilate a mean value.....you'll need that to determine the DI reset
Of course all this distracts from the real issue That PAW with "Bitching Betty" (love that monicker) telling you the risks she's spotted and that damned Sky- demon that has so many options and layers of information that you really can't be bothered to actually fly the aeroplane...let some other sap do that, you've too many interesting gismos to play with!

FTAOD....Tongue very firmly in cheek...... What would I know, anyway?

[Dave Phillips]

Maybe this has been mentioned earlier but a quick look at uAvionix website gives this:



Note the planned interaction with PAW. Now that could be just marketing blurb........

[RobertPBham]

Having followed both EC threads fairly well, I can see the passion people have.

From drawing my own conclusions from all that is said, I believe we may have to accept at least two EC solutions and my reasons for this are as follows:

ADSB out may be mandated/become included on all new aircraft
but
if the CAA follows the same stance as the FAA and bans carry on ADSB out devices with transponders, the only solution would be two devices - the ‘standard’ ADSB in and out device that is factory fitted and then a carry on device like PAW or FLARM that has ADSB in only.

I know this might not be seen as ideal but it is a possibility it will be the only way! With this in mind, I think we should try and improve the functionality and ability of these devices rather than ‘bash’ specific devices as they could save our lives at some point!

It appears to be a complete guessing game as to what will happen and when.

[neilmurg]

if the CAA follows the same stance as the FAA and bans carry on ADSB out devices with transponders, the only solution would be two devices - the ‘standard’ ADSB in and out device that is factory fitted and then a carry on device like PAW or FLARM that has ADSB in only.

Robert, that's a HUGE if, I've quoted you out of context sorry.
If you fly GA and you think EC (Electronic Conspicuity) can help your SA (Situational Awareness), the question is, what to do or not do?
The BEST SA device available right now and in the near future for GA is PAw. There is no sensible alternative. You should also, in Europe emit ADSB as soon as you can, to help others (but not you, but you're socially engaged right?).
If you don't have a transponder (!) then an SE2 improves your SA, (but mainly others) and eventually, one day, if you're lucky it may be accepted as a Mode S transponder (etc etc).

I think that's a fair summary

[gaznav]

@neilmurg

The BEST SA device available right now and in the near future for GA is PAw

Really???

PowerFLARM Portable does ADS-B In, FLARM In/Out and Mode C/S proximity detection.

SkyEcho2 does ADS-B In/Out, Mode C/S proximity detection, UAT Weather and has a wifi bridge for FLARM.

There are other solutions and combinations as well that can compete.

I agree that PAW is a good solution for some but I most certainly do not agree it is the best by some margin. The only significant edge I would say it has is that it is cheap and so that means it is popular but it may not be the best - there is a big difference between the two

[RobertPBham]

Hi Neil,

I didn’t put in my post what I use for EC now and that’s PAW.

The reason I didn’t mention it is because I was trying to stay impartial with my opinion. I honestly believe this is an ever changing landscape and whatever you use now might not be the right thing in a few years time.

I’m relatively new in the aviation world but am always shocked when I hear people say they don’t have a transponder and airfield plates state none radio traffic not accepted (implying people fly without two way communication with anyone). If these two items aren’t compulsory, what hope have we got for one standardised EC system - I’m not saying it won’t happen but hopefully you see the point.

And hence why I believe that anything new will probably have ADSB in and out or the owner will specify it and then the rest will rely on us. I rent aircraft and am disappointed when I don’t get a GPS unit - what hope have I got for forcing an EC system. It then relies on me making the best choice for my flying - I need Mode S so am limited to the device I can pick.

I really don’t mind what people use - FLARM, PAW, SE2 etc - I just think they should be able to see each other easily and cost effectively. Then, when things are standardised, you go from there.

[Rob P]

I’m relatively new in the aviation world but am always shocked when I hear people say they don’t have a transponder and airfield plates state none radio traffic not accepted (implying people fly without two way communication with anyone). If these two items aren’t compulsory...

No need to be shocked.

There are aircraft flying without the electrical system required to support a transponder. The affordable, lightweight, low power units we were promised by the legislators when they introduced Mode S never materialised.

Those flying without two way communications with anyone are only a slightly greater threat to you than you are to the guy whose two-way communication is with a different unit.

We can all imagine a nirvana where everyone knows exactly where everyone else is, but I doubt it'll come around in my lifetime, nor would I want it to if it grounded the historics still flying amongst us.

Rob P

[neilmurg]

@neilmurg

The BEST SA device available right now and in the near future for GA is PAw

Really???

Really, other opinions are available, and even allowable thumriiiit

[leemoore1966]

PowerFLARM Portable does ADS-B In, FLARM In/Out and Mode C/S proximity detection.

I have a FLARM myself, so pretty familiar with this.

SkyEcho2 does ADS-B In/Out, Mode C/S proximity detection, UAT Weather and has a wifi bridge for FLARM.

You use the present tense here, this was news to me, would be interested in a screenshot of what C/S and FLARM detection looks like ?
Maybe SkyDemon and EasyVFR - or whatever system you use ?

Thx
Lee