[astroguy]

My forced landings need working on! Video link below.
I am flying an Ikarus c 42 LSA and at 42 hours logged total.... I need my forced landings to be improved.
I am starting them from a low altitute of 1,200 feet and am finding that I'm coming short most of the time.
Any tips for me?
Dave

[Paul_Sengupta]

I am starting them from a low altitute of 1,200 feet and am finding that I'm coming short most of the time. Any tips for me?

Start higher.

[Maxthelion]

You're doing the right thing - making the effort to self coach yourself into being a better pilot. A lot of folks don't bother and take much longer to improve post PPL-issue than they could have done otherwise. Never be slow and low at the same time and you'll be fine.

When doing the forced landings - make sure the power really is at the slowest idle the engine will maintain, and stay away from the flap lever until you have the far end of your selected field made. Then use flap and side slip to bring your aiming point back toward you to allow yourself room to roll out.
Look at your aiming point and judge whether it's moving up or down the windscreen. If you're having to pull back and sacrifice speed to keep it there, then you're not going to make it.
Always remember that it's better to roll into the far hedge of a field at 20kt than it is to fly into the near hedge at 50kt. However, given you're in a C42, in the event of a real engine failure, your biggest risk is choosing to turn at low level to make a field and spinning in, rather than just flying it in a straight line under control to the patch of trees where the insurance company will begin their ownership of the aircraft. Hitting trees at 35kt will leave you unharmed 95% of the time. Spinning in will leave you dead 95% of the time.

[lobstaboy]

I am starting them from a low altitute of 1,200 feet and am finding that I'm coming short most of the time. Any tips for me?

Start higher.

Joking aside, if you start much higher you'll get a chance to work on field selection, planning how to approach your chosen field and how to make adjustments on the way down so that you are perfectly positioned at about 500' to reach the middle of the field.
I mean 3000' agl.
1000' or so leaves you very little time to do anything other than land in the field under the nose. You are trying to do things like turn off the fuel in a short space of time that in a real engine out you need to be using to get the approach right.
Make sure you can do it very well every time from 3000' and then start reducing the height above ground.
With the flaps on a C42 you should be able to control the approach really well. But only if you've got sufficient height to start with...
Oh, and make sure to trim for best glide.

[Flyin'Dutch']

You need to do some flying with an instructor who can teach and demonstrate the appropriate technique.

In the meantime I suggest you do HASSLE checks before doing stalls, do them higher, and don't practise PFLs where an engine out situation would see you ending up in the trees.

Oh, and the glide performance will be way worse with the engine out.

[Genghis the Engineer]

HASELL checks FD? Otherwise agree.


The way you're flying this, I see in a great many PPLs I fly with as an instructor, and usually ends up with the same results.

Firstly - if the engine has done something odd, sweep the cockpit looking for potential to clear / restart. With practice that should take seconds and should be your second instinct after the first one of aggressively trimming best glide and pointing into a safe area.

Second, whatever happens, the aeroplane's drag characteristics won't be the same as they were with the throttle at idle. Probably worse, maybe much worse - so anything based upon assuming you know the glide behaviour is going to end in tears.

I would look for fields MUCH closer - stretching the glide will also end in tears. Position yourself around downwind/base (circuit direction doesn't matter, nor do precise heights). Once you have the field, re-trim to your minimum approach speed. And then use a turn to adjust to your aiming point, which typically is around a third of the way into your "runway". Widen the turn if the aiming point is going down in your field of view, tighten it if it's going up. Roll wings level and dump the flaps quite low when you can definitely make the target - the flaps should then bring the touchdown point a bit closer and set up a nice landing.

1200ft is also far too low to start practicing stuff like this. Like Lobstaboy says, try nearer 3000 (ditto, as FD says, for stalls) then as you get good, reduce the start heights.

And lastly, the man who tries to teach himself how to fly has an idiot for an instructor. Go and spend quality time with an experienced instructor who can demonstrate and explain this vastly better than any of us can in the format this bulletin board permits us. With 42 hours you're a beginner, and need to remember that. All this stooging around low level in an aeroplane with an uncertified engine, over forest, is also not the cleverest thing I've ever seen.

G

[Flyin'Dutch']

HASELL checks FD?

Doh - Schpelchecka, innit!

[astroguy]

HASELL checks FD? Otherwise agree.


The way you're flying this, I see in a great many PPLs I fly with as an instructor, and usually ends up with the same results.

Firstly - if the engine has done something odd, sweep the cockpit looking for potential to clear / restart. With practice that should take seconds and should be your second instinct after the first one of aggressively trimming best glide and pointing into a safe area.

Second, whatever happens, the aeroplane's drag characteristics won't be the same as they were with the throttle at idle. Probably worse, maybe much worse - so anything based upon assuming you know the glide behaviour is going to end in tears.

I would look for fields MUCH closer - stretching the glide will also end in tears. Position yourself around downwind/base (circuit direction doesn't matter, nor do precise heights). Once you have the field, re-trim to your minimum approach speed. And then use a turn to adjust to your aiming point, which typically is around a third of the way into your "runway". Widen the turn if the aiming point is going down in your field of view, tighten it if it's going up. Roll wings level and dump the flaps quite low when you can definitely make the target - the flaps should then bring the touchdown point a bit closer and set up a nice landing.

1200ft is also far too low to start practicing stuff like this. Like Lobstaboy says, try nearer 3000 (ditto, as FD says, for stalls) then as you get good, reduce the start heights.

And lastly, the man who tries to teach himself how to fly has an idiot for an instructor. Go and spend quality time with an experienced instructor who can demonstrate and explain this vastly better than any of us can in the format this bulletin board permits us. With 42 hours you're a beginner, and need to remember that. All this stooging around low level in an aeroplane with an uncertified engine, over forest, is also not the cleverest thing I've ever seen.

G

This is great stuff..... I like the instructor /idiot quote. I've done a few forced landings with an instructor but it's been a while and I've left the forced landings quite a bit simply beause I feel them to be difficult. Yes flying over forest can be an issue... so much around here is hydro lines and wind mills and cows in a field that I decided to pracitce land on areas that were more remote but yes I can see the error in that.
Thanks for thaking the time!

[astroguy]

You need to do some flying with an instructor who can teach and demonstrate the appropriate technique.

In the meantime I suggest you do HASSLE checks before doing stalls, do them higher, and don't practise PFLs where an engine out situation would see you ending up in the trees.

Oh, and the glide performance will be way worse with the engine out.

NIce info here....Yes full engine out glide performance would be a significant factor that is real but hard to practice. I wonder if there is approximate information out there that might give an idea of engine out with idle verses full stop?
thanks

[astroguy]

I am starting them from a low altitute of 1,200 feet and am finding that I'm coming short most of the time. Any tips for me?

Start higher.

Joking aside, if you start much higher you'll get a chance to work on field selection, planning how to approach your chosen field and how to make adjustments on the way down so that you are perfectly positioned at about 500' to reach the middle of the field.
I mean 3000' agl.
1000' or so leaves you very little time to do anything other than land in the field under the nose. You are trying to do things like turn off the fuel in a short space of time that in a real engine out you need to be using to get the approach right.
Make sure you can do it very well every time from 3000' and then start reducing the height above ground.
With the flaps on a C42 you should be able to control the approach really well. But only if you've got sufficient height to start with...
Oh, and make sure to trim for best glide.

I love it.... I'm glad I posted this.... wonderful feedback.... will do starting from higher altitude.
Thanks

[Genghis the Engineer]

You need to do some flying with an instructor who can teach and demonstrate the appropriate technique.

In the meantime I suggest you do HASSLE checks before doing stalls, do them higher, and don't practise PFLs where an engine out situation would see you ending up in the trees.

Oh, and the glide performance will be way worse with the engine out.

NIce info here....Yes full engine out glide performance would be a significant factor that is real but hard to practice. I wonder if there is approximate information out there that might give an idea of engine out with idle verses full stop?
thanks

Even if you have that data - I'd not trust it.

Is the prop windmilling, or stopped? Alternately, generating continuously partial power due to a throttle cable failure?

Or has it thrown a crank, which has partially bent outwards the cowling?

Or has the prop fallen off?

And whilst we're at it, you won't know accurately the local wind either.


Basically you cannot assume you know what the glide angle will look like. The only way to fly an engine failure is on the assumption that you do not, and therefore need to be able to correct the glide - so any kind of long straight approach to land is incredibly high risk.

G

[Ikarus]

My instructors always had me constantly looking for a landing site whilst bimbling along.

I fly the C42

I tend to be "bimbling" at 2000ft to 3000ft and if the donkey quits I wont be looking too far ahead in the distance for a site , I'd already have nominated a landing area immediately adjacent on my wing or on the nose and be sorting out the checks and positioning as quick as possible using the available height to buy me some time before I commit to terra firma.

Personally I would only really be down to 1000 ft for established circuit height (or as required) , and I don't tend to fly huge bomber circuits just in case the motor up front decides to go silent on me

[riverrock]

Try doing some glide approaches into your own field to get more used to the picture.
Much easier to control your distance to touch down with a curved approach as you have no way to stretch a glide with a straight in (you can cut a turn, within reason). Is wind going to be stronger lower down?
Perhaps a refresher with an instructor would be good?

[matthew_w100]

Of course you go for a near field if there is one. But there usually isn't.

[flyingeeza]

So in reality, how often do microlights experience engine failures at 3000 feet? Crikey I only go up there when I'm busting clouds and being a hooligan! Most microlight engine failures are going to happen way lower than 3000 feet, so what's the use of practising from way up there at 3000'? There's so much time to prepare, which is not so much the case from 1000'.
I practice from where it's useful, not from where it's easy.