Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1639700
skydriller wrote:Holy Camoly!!! 62 Pages of this stuff with recent threads merged... :shock: :shock: :shock:


Hi SD,

63 pages now! Presumably reflective of the importance of the subject and depth of feelings held by the various forum members.

As long as we all keep it civil, I for one am happy to discuss the relative benefits and ‘options’ and there is of course no requirement for anyone to post or indeed read any of it !

Best Regards

Peter
(With Mode S-ES, Direct FLARM, PilotAware / OGN-R / Mode S-3D and if needed SkyEcho ATT-20B and SE1 - though of course I can’t legally run either of these two on transmit with my Mode-S at the moment)
#1639706
LOL - probably using primary RADAR looking at you but using several means to identify you. Then again, several military systems use ADS-B as one of the sources to work out what they are looking at - for example the AN/UPX-44a interrogator is capable of seeing ADS-B and is in use in a variety of military capabilities around the world. Plenty of info via Google on the various military systems that use or plan to use ADS-B.

Also, this article was written over a year ago that shows the global take up of ADS-B by various militaries.
https://opensky-network.org/files/publications/dasc17.pdf

Here is a graph from the paper:
Image

Basically Israeli aircraft have 10% fitted for ADS-B, whilst the UK is just over 50% and the Saudis lead at 90%. These are pre-2017 figures and so they will all have grown.

PS. Flight Radar 24 filter out a lot of the military and state aircraft but other sites do not. This site is a good one to watch during the week when peacetime training is on (select the “military ADS-B” option to see them):
https://www.live-military-mode-s.eu

This is a screen grab from that site this morning (Saturday - so not very busy) showing the military ADS-B Out in Europe.
Image
Last edited by gaznav on Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1639708
There may well be 63 pages but there is also a lot of good information. I have certainly benefitted from the knowledge of the experts and even the ex-Crab :D I like to think this knowledge may have even helped with the CASA decision, as I was quite vociferous (quelle surprise) when they invited comment on the future of Australian EC. I've certainly been impressed with the UK's enlightened approach to the 'uncertified' way of doing things and encouraging more people by using the cheaper option, compared to the US more-expensive version.

I now have to convince my electronic luddite mate, whose RV8 I'm going to be testing shortly, that it's a good idea to wire up the Skyview to the Trig TT21 and get 'cheap' ADSB Out (he doesn't really want to get back into the mass of wires) :D
#1639760
gaznav wrote:
Here is a graph from the paper:
Image

Basically Israeli aircraft have 10% fitted for ADS-B, whilst the UK is just over 50% and the Saudis lead at 90%. These are pre-2017 figures and so they will all have grown.


The graph shows 50% of UK aircraft using Mode S EHS have ADSB enabled.
NOT 50% of the UK aircraft total :?:

SL
#1639782
GrahamB wrote:I thought the graph related to military aircraft only, not all aircraft.


Ah yes, military.
But not all military.
The comparison is those that have Mode S and of those which have ADSB enabled.
Not sure if that is relevant to us that don't carry gunz and stuf.
#1639813
neilmurg wrote:
gaznav wrote:So once Mode S and CAP1391 low-power ADS-B are cleared to emit concurrently...mass take up of ADS-B
That would be great, but don't bet the farm on it. Get what works now

gaznav wrote:Surely using that logic then buying something that does not emit ADS-B is then an unwise investment? As pretty much all of the world has designs on ADS-B in the near future?
It works with the transmissions seen now, it's not 'FLARM in soon' and 'Mode C/S In soon'. The majority of GA will be ADS-B out when? 2025? 28?
And puleeese don't say 'well it could be sooner than that', 'cos, it could be later than that, if at all, we've seen it before
IF you think EC is a good thing, get some. I recommend PAw, because it works, and it will be a cost effective benefit until ADS-B or it's successor is established, and it will still work then. For ADS-B out, upgrade your transponder. The Americans require your ADS-B out to be an installed approved system.

Gaz, we know what we both think and where we differ. Please stop asking me questions
#1639840
neilmurg wrote:
neilmurg wrote:
gaznav wrote:So once Mode S and CAP1391 low-power ADS-B are cleared to emit concurrently...mass take up of ADS-B
That would be great, but don't bet the farm on it. Get what works now

gaznav wrote:Surely using that logic then buying something that does not emit ADS-B is then an unwise investment? As pretty much all of the world has designs on ADS-B in the near future?
It works with the transmissions seen now, it's not 'FLARM in soon' and 'Mode C/S In soon'. The majority of GA will be ADS-B out when? 2025? 28?
And puleeese don't say 'well it could be sooner than that', 'cos, it could be later than that, if at all, we've seen it before
IF you think EC is a good thing, get some. I recommend PAw, because it works, and it will be a cost effective benefit until ADS-B or it's successor is established, and it will still work then. For ADS-B out, upgrade your transponder. The Americans require your ADS-B out to be an installed approved system.

Gaz, we know what we both think and where we differ. Please stop asking me questions


Hi Neil

Again, using that logic, there are CAP1391 compliant portable devices that also work. They are cheap - under the magic £500 price point that many asked for when we discussed LPATS on this very forum. Yes, the US has adopted one system, but the UK and now it seems Australia are enabling the ability to use portable ADS-B devices alongside more expensive systems. As for 2028 or even 2025, I think that is way too pessimistic- many of the EASA/SESAR documents point towards 2022 as does the recent CAA CAP1690 ‘Draft Airspace Modernisation Strategy’. Even 2022 is not exactly ambitious - impementation is now just a COTS buy for many and it could all be done by 2020 if the CAA/NATS wanted to incentivise by providing UAT data and access to airspace under VFR with ADS-B like the Australians propose.

No questions - how’s that me old? Oops... Damn it... :thumright:
#1640951
More updates on the ADS-B technology for drones an GA.

https://uavionix.com/news/uavionix-adds ... lications/

The interesting thing is “low power, spectrum saving” which is what I have been saying all along - as long as everyone isn’t shouting really loudly then those local can hear each other!

More info here: https://uavionix.com/news/ads-b-inert-a ... -concerns/

https://uavionix.com/downloads/whitepap ... CONOPS.pdf

Fascinating reads for the technically minded :thumleft:
#1640968
I have pointed to a study article and paper of evidence - not exactly advertising? Or are we having to go all Auntie Beeb and put tape across any branding logos like they used to on Blue Peter?

I have even started using “CAP1391 portable ADS-B device” in my previous post to show that other devices may be available.

Image

:lol: :lol:
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