[dewidaniels]

Right... so are people telling me that glider pilots are now able/willingly having their FLARM position data blocked from being displayed on the internet display sites?? Brilliant. Having got to a position with massive LCD displays in our ops and in ATC to try and help safely work around them, they are blocking being displayed?!

You'll have to blame the Germans for that one. They're the ones who kicked up a huge stink about it.

I don't know anyone who has set his FLARM to no-track mode. Most of the glider pilots I know, including myself, have registered their FLARM on the OGN Devices Database and thereby explicitly given their consent for their aircraft details to be displayed on the internet display sites.

After further research, I think that OGN is compliant with GDPR. The details are at http://wiki.glidernet.org/opt-in-opt-out. I told you this area was complicated! If you don't register your device on the OGN Devices Database, then your aircraft is tracked anonymously (no device id, no aircraft registration). If you register your device on the OGN Devices Database, i.e. explicitly opt-in, OGN will display your aircraft registration. If you set your FLARM to no-track mode your aircraft will not be tracked at all. If you explicitly opt-out of OGN, your position will not be displayed but it will be logged on the OGN servers.

[Buzz53]

I'm not sure I understand your concern here ?
We are not using any data that is not publicly available via the OGN on glidernet
Privacy is already handled by the OGN by having an OPT-IN clause, described here :-
http://wiki.glidernet.org/opt-in-opt-out

Lee, 10 minutes after my posting about PAW rebroadcast of Flarm, I realised my error but was by then trapped on an aeroplane. PAW does, I see now, take and rebroadcast everything (except NOTRACK) but that's fine because it isn't going into a tracking system. Apologies! But it would still be good to have this all set out on your site!

Alan

[dewidaniels]

After further research, I think that OGN is compliant with GDPR. The details are at http://wiki.glidernet.org/opt-in-opt-out. I told you this area was complicated! If you don't register your device on the OGN Devices Database, then your aircraft is tracked anonymously (no device id, no aircraft registration). If you register your device on the OGN Devices Database, i.e. explicitly opt-in, OGN will display your aircraft registration. If you set your FLARM to no-track mode your aircraft will not be tracked at all. If you explicitly opt-out of OGN, your position will not be displayed but it will be logged on the OGN servers.

I'm still unsure. My head is still spinning from trying to work out how the FLARM stealth and no-track modes work, and now I'm trying to get my head around the GDPR! According to the ICO website, "Information which has had identifiers removed or replaced in order to pseudonymise the data is still personal data for the purposes of GDPR" (https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/gu ... onal-data/). Doesn't that mean that OGN's opt-in mechanism is not sufficient, since they anonymise your data, but still process it, unless you opt-out?

Personally, I don't care as I've already given OGN explicit consent to use my aircraft registration by opting-in.

[gaznav]

Just another ADS-B snippet thanks to @Dave Phillips . It appears that the military ATC regulations allow for the use of ADS-B as an alternative to SSR (ie. Mode 3/A or Mode S).

Automatic Dependant Surveillance Broadcast (ADS-B) and Wide Area Multilateration (WAM) are acceptable alternatives to SSR.

Source MAA RA 3222 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/605555/RA3222_Issue_2.pdf

And

ATS Surveillance System: Primary Surveillance Radar (PSR), Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR), Automatic Dependant Surveillance Broadcast (ADS-B) or any comparable system (Wide Area Multilateration (WAM)) that is used to determine the position of an AS in range and azimuth. However, units who provide Radar Control Service inside CAS where only SSR, WAM or ADS-B is available should ensure local orders define procedures to cover the eventuality of an AS whose transponder is unserviceable while operating in CAS.

Source MAA RA 3223 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/472710/RA3223_Issue_2.pdf

So I would see that a CAP1391 portable ADS-B Out device (SIL>=1) could give you access to airspace if the ATC RADAR Unit has an ADS-B In capability - like the Wide Area Multilateration (WAM) capability Dave mentioned earlier and helpfully shared a link to Project MARSHALL at RAF Coningsby and RAF Shawbury. See post viewtopic.php?p=1643378#p1643378

I just need to get near one of these WAM sites to prove that they can see me.

[skydriller]

I have no problem with me, my car, my aircraft, my motorbike, my bicycle or anything else being tracked if anyone is that bothered - nothing to hide, nothing to worry about; in fact it probably makes life safer in case I don’t turn up...

You've obviously not got a slightly-mad Ex-wife...

Unfortunately, there are those in the world that have nothing better to do with their lives than track the movements of others for less that altruistic reasons. As someone that shares an aeroplane, when tracking it the public (and my ex) is not aware if they are tracking me or one of many other people - so Im OK with FR24. But the concept of Car24 would allow anyone to drive by your house, take your reg-number and then using Car 24 track you and promptly steal stuff from your house while you were away. Therefore on the one hand I can see why those owning their own aeroplanes, might also feel that there is an issue with the likes of FR24, especially seeing as the CAA publicly has its "customers" details on its website. However, Turning Flarm off for competitions kinda defeats the purpose of EC...

Regards, SD..

[gaznav]

Or alternatively park outside your pad in a knackered Ford Transit waiting and watching the house, counting out the familiy members and when empty stealing stuff from your empty house?

Luckiliy we rely on thieves not being too bright and also the cops being slightly brighter.

[gaznav]

I’ve been some more digging. I hadn’t realised but Newcastle Airport also has WAM with an ADS-B detection capability. https://www.era.aero/downloads/case-stu ... castle.pdf

So looking at this, we have:

1. Edinburgh
2. Newcastle
3. Aberdeen (plus the rigs)
4. Coningsby
5. Shawbury
6. Dundee

All using WAM which has ADS-B detection capabilities. Then we have:

1. Gloucester
2. Barton
3. Goodwood

Are all rolling out ADS-B displays in theirtowers thanks to Airspace4All.

Then we have places like Turweston using ADS-B reception to assist with their own local situation awareness. So some on here have been saying that GA ADS-B is far off for Air Traffic Management - well with the above Air Traffic regulations and the various installations around the country, I would offer that it is hear now and not in “2025” as some would have you believe.

I’ll be floating about the skies this afternoon using my CAP1391 portable low power ADS-B device - visible to many in the air and on the ground for just over 400 quid.

[mo0g]

@gaznav I think you previously mentioned you are involved in the safety committee for RAF Halton?

Can you tell us what EC RAF Halton aircraft have?

[gaznav]

As a gliding airfield then FLARM is mandatory - all other types of EC are welcome. This is under constant review. I only fly at Halton occasionally these days having gone onto other things

[mo0g]

As a gliding airfield then FLARM is mandatory - all other types of EC are welcome. This is under constant review. I only fly at Halton occasionally these days having gone onto other things

So the powered fleet only have basic flarm, no other EC, and are reliant on other aircraft with, for example, uncertified/amateur EC in an uncertified/amateur OGN area to see them?

This seems at odds with your assertions around the safety aspects of such uncertified/amateur solutions, surely RAF Halton ought to be doing more to see and be seen, if it is such an issue, were you pushing for ADSB out for the powered fleet and if so, why wasn't it implemented?

[gaznav]

I think you misunderstand. The majority of flying at RAF Halton until very recently was gliding - 100% FLARM fit. The RAF Flying, Gliding and Microlight Clubs that operate there have a mixture of EC on top of FLARM. All Club aircraft have Mode S and some with ADS-B. Some of the Service personnel in their own aircraft have FLARM, Mode S, ADS-B and PAW. The military aircraft that visit sometimes have FLARM.

The use of 100% FLARM in the ATZ has been ongoing since 5 years ago. A long time before PAW and portable ADS-B was even available. We even fitted FLARM to some drones so they could operte in the ATZ for a trial. It was utilised to treat a known risk when both powered and gliding aircraft were operating mirror circuits onto parallel runways - the mid air risk being the turn onto final.

I hope that sets out the picture clearer?

[Dave Phillips]

gaznav, I'm pretty sure you can add Linton to your list by the end of November.

[flybymike]

By the by, but last I heard Linton was scheduled for closure in 2020.

[Dave Phillips]

Doesn't matter. We're talking about a few antennas; pretty much like mobile phone masts.

http://old.era.aero/news/165/59/ERA-WAM ... port-area/

[gaznav]

FBM

I was thinking the same - it’s probably to trial with Linton’s large amount of circuit/instrument traffic. As Dave shows it will be moved on after the place closes.