[Shrek235]

Now that I have started learning to fly a Flexwing, I notice that a lot of airfields won't have them visit. I wonder why this is? The Flexwing I fly has a rotax 912. The same organisation has a three axis microlight that is also driven by a rotax 912. One is allowed in to an airfield but the other is not, so there must be another reason why the Flexwings are "banned" at some airfields but I can't work this one out? Anyone care to offer a sensible opinion?

[Morten]

I believe it is due to the landing/approach speed. Flexwings tend to be significantly slower and can be difficult to integrate with faster traffic.
Not commenting on whether that's right or wrong - just parroting what I've read/heard.

[Paultheparaglider]

There isn't any real reason why a modern 912 flexwing can't fit in with most GA traffic. It works fine at far and away the majority of landing strips in the UK. If it can work at Staverton it can work anywhere. So, it is prejudice plain and simple.

Personally, I've never cared. There are plenty of places that take flexwings, and not visiting the places that don't want us there has never inconvenienced me one bit. Life is just too short.

[matthew_w100]

It is an anachronism from the days when flexis were powered by Rotax 377 two strokes with an approach speed of about 35kts. Actually "two stroke" is probably almost as significant as 35kts - they had the reputation of being slow and noisy with a particularly irritating engine note. Jeremy Clarkson hates them alone of all petrol fueled recreational vehicles. And prejudice build up and is yet to be turned back.

Ironically a number of airfields facing closure at the moment don't accept microlights but seem quite surprised when the microlighters refuse to support them.

[Chris Martyr]

Jeremy Clarkson hates them .

In that case , it makes 'em perfectly alright in my books then !

I believe that all this is a remnant of the days of "flying handkerchiefs" , which are long gone as far as I'm concerned .

Not sure why , but there are still airfields that practice this antiquated old 1970s mode of thought .
The aircraft themselves are perfectly capable of holding their own in any GA context . As long as their pilots are also similarly capable , then bring 'em on I say !

[Nick]

There isn't any real reason why a modern 912 flexwing can't fit in with most GA traffic. It works fine at far and away the majority of landing strips in the UK. If it can work at Staverton it can work anywhere. So, it is prejudice plain and simple.

Personally, I've never cared. There are plenty of places that take flexwings, and not visiting the places that don't want us there has never inconvenienced me one bit. Life is just too short.

OH C'mon Paul.....You should know microlighters are not real pilots. They just get on and do it.

While the real pilots stand at the bar worrying how they can get enough hours to keep their PPL.

Nick

[Ian Melville]

Jeremy Clarkson hates them .

In that case , it makes 'em perfectly alright in my books then !

Enstone Microlights used to have a VRP called 'JC VRP'. Guess who's house that was over

[PeteSpencer]

We don’t allow visiting flexwings into our strip principally because of their protracted noise footprint: we have five noise sensitive areas at all points of the compass around our strip and strive not to upset the neighbours who, after a rocky start thanks to Bill and Teds excellent,skydiving outfit bull sh itting the farmer into letting them use the strip in the early 90s, are now back on side again.

And don’t talk to me about paramotors..

Peter

[Paultheparaglider]

We don’t allow visiting flexwings into our strip principally because of their protracted noise footprint: we have five noise sensitive areas at all points of the compass around our strip and strive not to upset the neighbours who, after a rocky start thanks to Bill and Teds excellent,skydiving outfit bull sh itting the farmer into letting them use the strip in the early 90s, are now back on side again.

And don’t talk to me about paramotors..

Peter

What we need as a society is far more live and let live. And a lot less selfish nimbyism.

I live near Usk Gliding Club and regularly see the tug overhead on full fine. I like aviation, and it doesn't bother me. In all honesty, even on a busy day, it doesn't pass over more than a dozen times, and even when it circles around a bit, it isn't a big deal. Yes, it is a lot more noisy than a hundred microlights passing overhead, but it really isn't a big deal. Maybe about as irritating as two average Piper Arrows on climb out, Pete.

However, were I to make a big fuss I'm sure my house would end up on a map in the clubhouse with a hatched avoid this jerk marking. This would inconvenience them a lot because of the specific location of my house. And, as they seem to try to be considerate anyway and alternate their climb out routes, the people who would suffer would be the other properties in the area that would then bear more of the noise burden.

As members of a society we all impact on each other in ways that have both positive and negative consequences. And we have both a responsibility to be thoughtful about the impacts of our own hobbies on others but, and probably even more importantly to a harmonious society, we also have a responsibility to be tolerant of the negative impacts of the interests of others. It is this latter aspect where we are often particularly weak and selfish.

When I read on these forums of pilots whinging about cyclists, or horseists, or people who don't have the same colour car as me, I cringe. It is exactly this attitude that always puts me first and above even the most minor inconvenience that is central to the lack of cohesion in modern society. I was saddened to hear about Geoffrey Wellum, but I honestly suspect if he was flying off today to shoot down some Fokkers in Messerschmitts (even a rant is allowed a little humour surely), there would be moaners who would be only too happy to complain about the noise of him passing overhead.

These attitudes are mutually self destructive at the best of times, but when we even do it to others who share our own general interests, then all hope is lost.

[leiafee]

A QuickR with a 912 is massively faster and quieter than me in Rhubarb! It's a bit of a silly rule that sort of worked as a proxy for "slow and loud" once and doesn't anymore.

"No two strokes" would be fairer. Or "nothing with an approach speed below Xknots".

But by now some of these things have been written into planning docs and are hard to change oI suppose. Has anywhere tried having rules based on what they're trying to achieve noise wise rather than be type?

[Paul_Sengupta]

But Paul, it isn't Pete complaining, it's the strip neighbours who apparently have come very close to getting the strip shut down.

I honestly suspect if he was flying off today to shoot down some Fokkers in Messerschmitts (even a rant is allowed a little humour surely), there would be moaners who would be only too happy to complain about the noise of him passing overhead.

This is nothing new. It did happen. Remember the letter writer farmer in The Dambusters?

But by now some of these things have been written into planning docs and are hard to change I suppose.

The planning permission for our strip has a "no microlights" rule. You could probably get away with a 3-axis as the public don't generally recognise 3-axis machines to be microlights, but flexwings are rather more obvious.

Has anywhere tried having rules based on what they're trying to achieve noise wise rather than be type?

This would be better. "No engines over 2800 rpm"...

We had an autogyro come in for one of our BBQs...after he took off and headed into wind, you could hear it for a good 10 mins on full chat.

There was an autogyro based at the strip some time later but he was asked to leave after repeatedly flying low over the "avoid" areas to have a closer look.

[Miscellaneous]

But Paul, it isn't Pete complaining...

Indeed, it's the lack of tolerance of others that the complaint is about.

As it is with cyclists, horirsts and funny coloured car ists…it's not the activity that creates the whinging…it's their selfishness that their chosen passion should take precedence over everyone else.

[PeteSpencer]

Pauls 1 & 2 and others:

Note my post says 'visiting microlights'.

Its not the microlights themselves that knob me off but the pilots who, in the past, despite an extensive and often mocked PPR briefing insisted on repeated circuits over all the wrong (but well documented) places. For this reason we excluded them.

We care for our relationship with our neighbours: For this reason I turned down the RAF a few years ago who wanted to practice a fourship of Griffins doing off airfield landings for a week.

One of our long standing strip residents, a BA 747 captain and all round good bloke, who flies a Jodel, also flies a flexwing from the strip.

But he does it with extreme consideration for the environment and his footprint is practically non- existent.

Here are our noise sensitive areas marked in blue (with grateful thanks to Tim Dawson to allow me to use this SD image)



So I hope you can see why we are very much aware of nuisance caused by the uninformed.
This image plus A4 sheet of info goes to all PPR requests and explains why bomber command circuits to the north almost as far as the A1066 Thetford to Diss road are the order of the day.

Peter

[Genghis the Engineer]

Presumably for consistency you also ban visiting Thruster TSTs, X'Air 582s, VP1s, Freds, Curry-Wots... All of which are slower and noisier than modern flexwings.

G

[chevvron]

Presumably for consistency you also ban visiting Thruster TSTs, X'Air 582s, VP1s, Freds, Curry-Wots... All of which are slower and noisier than modern flexwings.

G

Rather than circuit speed, it seems to be runway occupancy time which causes some airfield operators to apply this ban.
If for instance, you have a hard 1,000m runway with access only at each end and the grass is unsuitable for taxying, a landing flexwing might slow to taxying speed and cause a succeeding PC12/Kingair to go-around.
The solution is paint an extra landing threshold at the centre point of the runway for slower/STOL aircraft use.