Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By matthew_w100
#1625855
PeteSpencer wrote:We don’t allow visiting flexwings into our strip principally because of their protracted noise footprint


Note my post says 'visiting microlights'.

Its not the microlights themselves that knob me off but the pilots who, in the past, despite an extensive and often mocked PPR briefing insisted on repeated circuits over all the wrong (but well documented) places. For this reason we excluded them. Peter


Which is it? Are you suggesting that there is a strong correlation between "microlight pilots" and "knobby pilots"? Or is it that many visiting pilots are knobby but because of their noise footprint the microlights have more impact? If the latter I think others have expressed the current situation better than I could. If the former we could be in for an interesting discussion ahead!

I would say that as an ex-flexi pilot who trained from a cow field, the idea of doing circuits at a private flying site is an absolute anathema. "Take off and fly off" was drilled into us from day one. Actually it was more colloquially phrased (my instructor was an ex-para) as "you don't sh*t on the doorstep"
PeteSpencer liked this
User avatar
By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1625860
chevvron wrote:
Genghis the Engineer wrote:Presumably for consistency you also ban visiting Thruster TSTs, X'Air 582s, VP1s, Freds, Curry-Wots... All of which are slower and noisier than modern flexwings.

G

Rather than circuit speed, it seems to be runway occupancy time which causes some airfield operators to apply this ban.
If for instance, you have a hard 1,000m runway with access only at each end and the grass is unsuitable for taxying, a landing flexwing might slow to taxying speed and cause a succeeding PC12/Kingair to go-around.
The solution is paint an extra landing threshold at the centre point of the runway for slower/STOL aircraft use. :twisted: :whistle:

The solution, surely, is just for all involved to show a bit of situational awareness and airmanship!

All of us are trained and capable of being aware of the location and performance of other aircraft, and where to land on a runway to minimise occupancy time. We don't need painted marks to do that.

G
Dave W, PeteSpencer, Spooky liked this
User avatar
By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1625862
Genghis the Engineer wrote:Presumably for consistency you also ban visiting Thruster TSTs, X'Air 582s, VP1s, Freds, Curry-Wots... All of which are slower and noisier than modern flexwings.

G


I always ask for aircraft type.

Peter
User avatar
By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1625864
matthew_w100 wrote:
Which is it? Are you suggesting that there is a strong correlation between "microlight pilots" and "knobby pilots"? Or is it that many visiting pilots are knobby but because of their noise footprint the microlights have more impact? If the latter I think others have expressed the current situation better than I could. If the former we could be in for an interesting discussion ahead!



I suppose what I'm saying is the inconsiderate actions of a few knobs in the past have queered the pitch for present day and future microlighter/paragliders.

We have nothing much to offer at Knettishall, not even a dunny, so our visitors are usually just visiting local relatives /friends/clients in the area.

The bottom line is we don't want to lose our gem of a strip as nearly happened after Bill and Ted's infestation , when fortunately just before the rising groundswell to shut us down reached fever pitch, Bill and Ted got permanently ejected.

Relations with neighbours have never been better today.

I'm not going to get tied up in forum ping pong: I think I've given my reasons clearly enough , so in the words of Bossman, let's just leave it at that.

Peter
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By chevvron
#1625868
Genghis the Engineer wrote:The solution, surely, is just for all involved to show a bit of situational awareness and airmanship!

All of us are trained and capable of being aware of the location and performance of other aircraft, and where to land on a runway to minimise occupancy time. We don't need painted marks to do that.

G

My suggestion was tongue in cheek as shown by the smileys, however I do agree; I have seen gyro pilots landing at Fairoaks floating down the runway to touch down in the last quarter indicating they are taking the 'needs' of others into account. The problem is, there will always be some idiot who doesn't do this and unless they are briefed to do it when/if they phone for PPR, they will touch down , slow to taxy speed and amble along the runway. If it's a FISO or A/G field, how do you get them to hurry up as you can't instruct them to 'expedite' as you can with ATC ?
There were markings painted on the runway at Wroughton for the '92 and '93 PFA Rallys to designate the 'land long' point, Woodford used to have two thresholds too and Farnborough has two thresholds for airshow traffic admittedly for different reasons, so there are precedents.
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1625876
If it's a FISO or A/G field, how do you get them to hurry up as you can't instruct them to 'expedite' as you can with ATC ?

Can’t a FISO instruct ground movements?

I remember one who remarked to me;

“Get your a rs e in gear...”
By chevvron
#1625877
flybymike wrote:
If it's a FISO or A/G field, how do you get them to hurry up as you can't instruct them to 'expedite' as you can with ATC ?

Can’t a FISO instruct ground movements?

I remember one who remarked to me;

“Get your a rs e in gear...”

Not to an aircraft on the runway; only between the holding point and the apron.
By pullup
#1625940
1. Had one pass transit through the overhead at 800 and then immediately descend to low level(about 150 ft) so asked him his intentions. Answer: Descending below circuit traffic.

2. Had one telephone for PPR. Given runway in use etc. Landed non radio in opposite direction immediately under departing Jodel. MOR filed. Answer: sorry saw there was a slight tailwaind...which is why we were on the upslope runway. Q. Why no radio. Answer: handheld, couldn’t find the frequency. Was trying to enter it on the VOR. Briefed to call up prior to taxiing for departure. Didn’t.

3. Two in formation. No PPR. Only one had radio. One landed over parked and taxing aircraft on disused runway. First post PPL cross country! Would you believe!

So common denominator is training at non radio airfields then attempting to visit busy airfields with radio and no experience.

We are seriously looking into their welcome.
User avatar
By Flintstone
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1625943
pullup wrote:1. Had one pass transit through the overhead at 800 and then immediately descend to low level(about 150 ft) so asked him his intentions. Answer: Descending below circuit traffic.




Image
pullup liked this
User avatar
By lobstaboy
#1625963
Now that the thread is degenerating into "let's slag offmicrolight pilots", I could tell you the story about the 172 driver who arrived at our farm strip without having called for PPR and proceeded to fly half a dozen circuits (go arounds because he couldn't get the approach right) all over the nearby noise sensitive village. By the time he landed we had irate villagers who had driven up to the airfield to complain.
The pilot's education by the strip owner, an ex airline pilot and microlight flier, consisted of being taken round the circuit and being shown how to dog leg round the village on final. I thought that was remarkably restrained and friendly, considering.
Turned out the pilot had been trained at a full ATC airfield, no training in grass or strip flying and had never heard of the need for PPR.

There are folk with gaps in their knowledge at all levels in flying. Trouble is many of us don't know what we don't know, and that can get us into trouble. We need to be more aware of those gaps in our knowledge and the rest of us maybe could be a bit more tolerant.
Paultheparaglider, Dave W, mick w and 8 others liked this