Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1624747
Most of us probably use some sort of new tech, and few if any of us will have had any specific training in its use - how to get the best from it and how to avoid pitfalls. This isn't just SkyDemon or PilotAware(*). How many of us use a 430 or similar and actually understand how to properly use it?

So, following on from Dave P's comments on the Skydemon presentation thread here, I wondered if we could tease out what post PPL "GPS/new tech" training might look like.

I'm not an FI or an FE so I'll leave it to others to start the ball rolling. However, I do think that there's a massive safety gain to be had by pilots safely using such new technologies.

[* other GPS & electronic conspicuity solutions are available]
#1624749
I've even flown something with an autopilot and not been trained to use it other than the "autopilot - off" in the check list. (I've never asked, mind.)

This was highlighted when someone managed to take off with the autopilot switched on. They had great difficulty controlling the aircraft round a circuit to land again, but they made it without breaking anything - all they knew was that they needed considerable force to keep the nose from going down, they didn't work out why.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1624750
There are several issues here...……

First those who actively avoid new technology even though some of us would argue that it's now an essential part of safe flying in most cases.

Second the level of skills of instructors how many actually keep themselves up to date?

Third, to some extent following on from two, what's the quality of the biennial instructor hour look like for most folk? Those of us with IRs have to revalidate every year and we have no choice but to stay up to date, this year we all have to get through a PBN check and endorsement. It's a very useful discipline.

Fourth, do any outfits offer ground school with supervised use of the increasingly common simulators for the Nav Gear such as GTN 650 on iPad. If they do, does anyone turn up? Are they well advertised?
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1624751
Gertie wrote:I've even flown something with an autopilot and not been trained to use it other than the "autopilot - off" in the check list. (I've never asked, mind.)

This was highlighted when someone managed to take off with the autopilot switched on. They had great difficulty controlling the aircraft round a circuit to land again, but they made it without breaking anything - all they knew was that they needed considerable force to keep the nose from going down, they didn't work out why.



Read the POH???
#1624753
Well the syllabus and what the student needs to demonstrate they can do at ppl level is here
http://fasvig.org/nav
Its actually not that difficult to integrate what fasvig suggest into ppl nav training and I suspect that most instructors do pretty much this anyway.

To my mind, making a big thing out of training how to use GPS may be counterproductive. JFDI.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1624774
Gertie wrote:
johnm wrote:Read the POH???

One, it was probably on the ground, and two, she was using both hands to stop the aircraft diving into the ground.


I had assumed that someone flying an aircraft with unfamiliar kit might have read the POH before taking flight :roll:
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#1624783
lobstaboy wrote:
To my mind, making a big thing out of training how to use GPS may be counterproductive. JFDI.



You've sort of missed the point. There's a difference between 'using' something and 'operating' it. My concern is how pilots integrate it into the overall operation of the aircraft.

Some musings based upon observing as an examiner during revalidation/renewal flights (I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I'm offering thoughts):

1. Does the GPS map need to be front-and-centre at all times? Would it be more effective to use it like a traditional map in that you use it to nail a hdg (track), aim at a point on the horizon and then store the (moving) map for a few minutes?

2. Why are people using moving maps in the visual cct?

3. Does the ability to plan quickly (often on the hoof) bring problems? I've done it - planning whilst walking to the aircraft and relying on the package given to me by the App. I've subsequently found myself self-briefing once airborne.

4. IFR - how do people interpret the information provided by the HSI and the geo-referenced chart? Which do they 'believe' and actually give primacy to?

5. Do people actually check where they are (ie looking at the ground) and compare this against the moving map? Are they putting faith in one system only which goes against the grain where pilots are traditionally encouraged to cross-check and have alternative mechanisms/back-ups (Yes, like many I often fly without a paper chart).


My point is that we need to ask ourselves the question otherwise we are doing ourselves a disservice by not questioning everything we do; how we can best knit together the various actions required to operate as safely as possible?
Shoestring Flyer, johnm liked this
#1624787
All good points Dave. I simply meant that the fasvig document should be sufficient as a syllabus to teach to.
There is a danger of 'paralysis by analysis' if we agonise over the details. Folk are using GPS now, and sometimes using it poorly. Its time to teach it now.
Yes, put it in the skills test. A nav exercise planned by the candidate and flown using whatever GPS is in the aircraft. Flown with the examiner, who checks that their use of the GPS enhances other tasks rather than detracts from them. Half way round the examiner turns off the GPS and candidate needs to be able to pick up map and carry on...
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#1624791
johnm wrote:I had assumed that someone flying an aircraft with unfamiliar kit might have read the POH before taking flight :roll:

I know that aircraft has an autopilot, but I have never wanted to use it, so never read the instructions for the AP in the POH, so all I ever knew how to do with it was make sure it was turned off.

As a result of this incident I now know rather more about it:

(1) it's possible to accidentally turn it on by accidentally hitting a switch with something after you have checked that it is off
(2) if you do that it could have a jolly good try at killing you
(3) so "is the autopilot still off like it was last time I looked" is something to check if you have control difficulties, and that lesson (unlike pages of irrelevancies in the POH) is something I can remember
(4) all of which can be avoided by having the CB permanently pulled except when someone is actually wanting to use the AP.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1624803
Don't like the idea of pulling CBs just be cause you have no idea how to use the kit they supply.

In our a/c there's no such thing as accidentally knocking on the auto pilot unless you are dumb enough accidentally to knock on three switches in the correct sequence.

And there is the odd occasion (bad turbulence in IMC springs to mind) that rather than killing you, the auto pilot might just hold your hand long enough for you to save your life.

Peter :wink:
#1624816
PeteSpencer wrote:Don't like the idea of pulling CBs just be cause you have no idea how to use the kit they supply.

Personally I didn't. If it was pulled when I got in the aircraft I left it pulled, otherwise I was really careful about making sure it was switched off.
PeteSpencer wrote:In our a/c there's no such thing as accidentally knocking on the auto pilot unless you are dumb enough accidentally to knock on three switches in the correct sequence.

That does sound like a rather safer design.
PeteSpencer wrote:And there is the odd occasion (bad turbulence in IMC springs to mind) that rather than killing you, the auto pilot might just hold your hand long enough for you to save your life.

Indeed so, and if I were to decide to enter into such conditions I'd probably read the book and do the training. I have come across turbulence in cloud, but nothing that can't be dealt with by slowing down and/or descending out of the bottom (and indeed on one occasion on an IMC(R) lesson we were being bounced around a bit, and when the instructor asked "what are you going to so about this" my reply was "nothing, it's nowhere near bad enough to bother me, and I'm sure the airframe limits are beyond mine"). I've always been a bit careful about what sort of cloud I knowingly venture into, but I do take your point about being better prepared for unexpected and unplanned circumstances.
#1624823
The gps and autopilot are great tools. If you have them in your club- or group aircraft, you're paying for them: why not learn to use them? Even if flying with only a map, the autopilot in heading mode gives you the chance to fold your map and see where you're going.

The things I believe you should learn, in order:

1. Autopilot disconnect. It's a button on the yoke/stick. Essential in cases like taking off with the AP turned on.
2. Turning on the AP in heading mode. Always have the bug in the correct place, even if you don't intend to turn on the AP.
3. Direct To on the gps (for reference only)
4. Setting the AP in NAV mode and selecting NAV or gps as input.
5. Creating a flight plan ahead of time and activating it

I myself do point 5 so seldom that I may forget how. Before a longish trip, especially without a pilot in the RHS, I practice on the ground. (With ground power: otherwise you might drain the battery.)

There are more things to do, such as setting up an approach down to 500 feet. I don't see the point for VFR pilots to use that.