Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620378
LAPL is a starter for 10, rent and consider upgrading to PPL(A) . Once upgraded buy into a syndicate with people you like and good avionics and get instrument qualifications e.g. IR(R) and go from there.
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By MarkOlding
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620421
Hi
I got my PPL in September last year and had very similar thoughts to you. I looked at 3 syndicates at my airfield which were offering PA28-140's for not much money (all around £1000 buy in and £80 a month / £80 per hour). It looked ideal and then my instructor gave me a reality check of a quick flight in a similar aircraft and my enthusiasm drained away. Its also worth mentioning that 2 of the groups had 15 or more members and those members didnt really know the others - not a good situation to my mind.

I then looked at a 172 which looked good but thankfully they wanted 100hrs P1 to join the group. I say thankfully as I have rented a PA28-160 since then and have started both tail wheel differences and occasionally complex training (try a Saratoga for size).

My aim now is to build on my experiences in the PA28 rental (see if your airfield will do deals on block bookings) and add new airfields to my log book, go cross channel and get signed off on the Piper Cub which is loads more fun to fly than the PA28 and cheaper to rent.

As has been said in previous posts - rent for a while, build up your list of places visited, try some new things and have fun.
Cheers
Mark
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By Rob P
#1620429
Find a flying buddy at a comparable stage of flying to yourself and share flights, one flying an outbound leg and another the return. Double the experience gaining at effectively half the cost.

Rob P
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By iaindings
#1620507
Hey all, thanks for all the constructive responses.

First - why those 2 planes? Well, put simply they're what are available (that I've found). I'm not in a position yet to be too picky and they get me flying for a reasonable cost - which is one of my big goals.

The LAA - well, I'm fortunate that a friend/colleague manages the events for the local Strut and is actually a student too so I have a good connection there, but nothing forthcoming locally yet. I've not wanted to say exactly where I am as I don't want someone to identify the syndicates I'm talking about and misconstrue anything I'm saying. Both groups are receptive to me joining post LAPL skills test - pending conversations and agreement obviously.

Finally, while I'm doing the LAPL it's mainly because I'm flying at weekends at the moment and it's been tough to get the hours in consistently - so I saw it as a route to getting something under my belt before the weather deteriorates at the end of summer. LAPL definitely isn't my end goal, I'll probably convert it to PPL next year and move onto IR(R) after that.

On reflection, I think I might just buy a block of 20 hours in the 152 - I can still have conversations with the syndicates and figure out what I want to do next. Being frank, I'm being swayed by the prospect of £85/hr - even though the break even point is higher due to the monthly payment, its easier to justify doing more trips if that's what it'll cost.

Question though on the commitment side, how does it generally work if I decide I dont want to be part of a syndicate any more? Would you have to wait for a buyer for your share before you can be extracted?
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By cotterpot
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620510
Depends.

But generally yes, you have to sell your share. However there are some groups that might want a say in who you sell to and how much for.

And don't underestimate the difficultly involved sometimes in selling a share in a less popular aircraft or a remote difficult to get to location.

After 10 years in a group I walked away from a £1k share because it was easy for me. £100 per year didn't seem that bad.

I now belong to a non equity group and we refund the £250 share that the pilot paid. We control the number and those admitted to the group.

We also fly for £50 per month and £72 per hour wet - and no we don't have any vacancies sorry.
By iaindings
#1620535
There is a non equity 172 nearby - but its based in an international airport with hefty landing fees. That one is £500 deposit, £95/month and £72/hr (£95/hr for the first hour each month).

That one works well financially but its a bit of a tatty old bird and has seen the wrong side of a hedge a few times. I also think I'd be happier at the little local airfield/school where I've been training than in the busy international airport - I can imagine a lot of the difference in price could end up soaked up sitting on taxiways or orbiting at the end of the base leg waiting for Flybe to do their thing
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620541
I can imagine a lot of the difference in price could end up soaked up sitting on taxiways or orbiting at the end of the base leg waiting for Flybe to do their thing

The story of my life, except that orbiting at the end of the base leg, rather than the end of the downwind leg, might stop Flybe doing their landing thing. :wink:
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By cotterpot
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620570
Good point.

Ours is on a farm strip in open FIR so we don't have that problem.

Might have to wait for the beet trucks or combine to clear the runway though.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620573
cotterpot wrote:Depends.

But generally yes, you have to sell your share. However there are some groups that might want a say in who you sell to and how much for.

And don't underestimate the difficultly involved sometimes in selling a share in a less popular aircraft or a remote difficult to get to location.

After 10 years in a group I walked away from a £1k share because it was easy for me. £100 per year didn't seem that bad.

I now belong to a non equity group and we refund the £250 share that the pilot paid. We control the number and those admitted to the group.

We also fly for £50 per month and £72 per hour wet - and no we don't have any vacancies sorry.


A couple of observations.

- I'll bet that, unless you were a complete pain in the backside within the syndicate, the rest of your group were far less than happy at just being dumped with your share and the responsibility of selling it. There are responsibilities, as well as rights, when you buys a share.

- "Non equity group" = rental. One should be honest about these things, which too many people are not. Nothing wrong with if it suits you, but it's a rental aeroplane, with the same airworthiness requirements, and the same lack of rights over it for the pilots.

G
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620575
In what way do the airworthiness requirements differ for equity and non equity groups, and I wonder to what extent any differences are followed?
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620577
Question though on the commitment side, how does it generally work if I decide I dont want to be part of a syndicate any more? Would you have to wait for a buyer for your share before you can be extracted?


Exactly that - it becomes your problem to advertise and sell your share.

I've probably better sight of this than most, so here's my experience of 10 syndicates in 21 years (both parallel and serial - I'd guess my average time in each group is around half a dozen years)...

(1) Spectrum, 1/20th (2-seat 3-axis microlight), club arrangements, sold share back to the club automatically.

(2) PA28, normal syndicate 1/17th, sold the share on easily as it was a popular group.

(3) Thruster, 1/10th (another 2-seat 3-axis microlight), I was in at the formation of the syndicate, and about 7 years later when we all decided to move on and sell the aeroplane.

(4) Big 1940s taildragger, Bought share, flew for half a dozen years, group decided to sell aeroplane and break up, as it needed more care than we were up to giving it. Uncontentious, although we probably hoped for a better price than we got.

(5) AA5, 1/20th share, still flying it, we have a waiting list for shares.

(6) Blade (flexwing microlight), three of us bought it together, after half a dozen years, sold it and bought something else.

(7) Raven (the next flexwing), same three, aircraft had a ground accident, decided to sell it for parts, broke the group up amicably.

(8) Interesting aerobatic 2-seater, recently bought a 1/11th share, there seems to be an informal waiting list for this as well so shares never actually get advertised.

(9) Single seat oddball 3-axis microlight, 2 of us bought it as a wreck, had a lot of fun restoring it, flew it for a few years, sold the aeroplane to a friend.

(10) Rollason Condor (lovely little British 2-seat wooden taildragger), 1/10th share. Group hit disagreements over the future of the aircraft, which all got a bit acrimonious - a couple of people wanted out but put b*****r-all effort into actually trying to sell their shares. Ended up selling the aeroplane and breaking the group up. *Some* of us are still friends!


So, a mixed bag, which I think is pretty representative of the profile overall.

Whenever I've worked it out, I've typically throughout the duration of a share paid 60%ish of what it would have cost to rent something similar - if I could rent something similar of course, which isn't always possible with the more fun types.

G
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620579
flybymike wrote:In what way do the airworthiness requirements differ for equity and non equity groups, and I wonder to what extent any differences are followed?


The biggie will be engine hours on a CofA aeroplane. After the classic 12 years / 2000hrs + extension, engines go on condition. At that point, it can only be used for true private use, nor rental or non-owner instruction.

Permit to Fly Aeroplanes (with the exception of the Type Approved Microlights, and whatever the most recent ANO amendments permit - which we're all still getting our heads around) by and large can't be used for rent - only true syndicates.

So, for example, you can't have a non-equity syndicate on a Europa (or couldn't last year anyhow - again, see what I said about recent ANO amendments).

G
By iaindings
#1620589
flybymike wrote:
I can imagine a lot of the difference in price could end up soaked up sitting on taxiways or orbiting at the end of the base leg waiting for Flybe to do their thing

The story of my life, except that orbiting at the end of the base leg, rather than the end of the downwind leg, might stop Flybe doing their landing thing. :wink:


Depends which end I suppose :)
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By cotterpot
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620597
- I'll bet that, unless you were a complete pain in the backside within the syndicate, the rest of your group were far less than happy at just being dumped with your share and the responsibility of selling it. There are responsibilities, as well as rights, when you buys a share.


They were quite happy about it as I did give about 4 months notice and they had others to take my place before I left.