[iaindings]

Hey all, I was hoping I could tap your collective experience and opinions.

I have my LAPL skills test booked for Sunday and obviously really hoping it'll be a pass. I'm trying to figure out the best balance of cost, practicality, risk etc in deciding what to do to keep flying - I want to fly recreationally, not sure how may hours I'll end up doing but hopefully around 20-40 per year. I've narrowed it down to 3 options

1 - Keep renting from the school/club flying the same 152s I've been learning in for £160 per hour or a bit less for block purchases of 10 hours. They have 172s and a couple of PA28s too

2 - Join a local syndicate with a 172 - its well equipped, fully IFR capable etc - for £100p/m and £85/hr wet.

3 - Join another local syndicate with a PA28-180. Avoinics not quite as new as the 172 but a new leather interior and paint job, still perfectly well equipped for what I need. £100p/m and £40/hr dry

Both groups have a similar purchase price (£3-4k) so it's mainly choice between Cessna/Piper and the 2 groups.

Part of my thinks the sensible decision would be to buy 10-20 hours in block for the 152 and then evaluate how much flying I'm doing while remaining as confident as possible in the same machine I've been training in. But those 20 hours would be significantly cheaper in one of the groups, while being in a more comfortable and capable machine.

How important are the other people in the group when joining these things? I've heard good things about one group and less good things about another but I dont know how much that would affect life day to day - provided I can pay the money and have a plane thats reasonably available and safe/well maintained I dont think I'd be worried about much else....or am I oversimplifying things?

What did you do after passing? Trying to find an unbiased opinion seems really hard!

[TopCat]

2 - Join a local syndicate with a 172 - its well equipped, fully IFR capable etc - for £100p/m and £85/hr wet.

3 - Join another local syndicate with a PA28-180. Avoinics not quite as new as the 172 but a new leather interior and paint job, still perfectly well equipped for what I need. £100p/m and £40/hr dry

£40 per hour dry is probably going to be at least £85 per hour wet.

At a conservative estimate, lets say 25 litres an hour at £1.75 per litre.... that's £43.75 per hour for the fuel. And I bet a PA28-180 or a 172 burns more than 25 litres per hour.

So just under £85 per hour wet even if it only sips fuel like my Grumman.

It also depends on how they define an hour (Hobbs? Tacho?), but the two rates sound like they won't be a million miles apart.

So if you've learned in a 152, you might find the 172 easier to transition to.

However, buying into a group so soon after getting your licence would be quite a commitment. If you didn't like it for some reason, you'd be stuck with the monthly cost until you could sell your share.

I'd be inclined to stick with what you're used to initially - build a few hours and talk to lots of people in the meantime.

Other than that I can't really advise... I mostly flew the aircraft I learned in after I got my licence, and then bought it a few years later.

[Genghis the Engineer]

An obvious question from me. Why are you fixating on two expensive, uninspiring, and thirsty aeroplanes in the C172 and PA28. Okay, they're easy to fly and carry a reasonable payload, but just about the two least interesting aeroplanes of the 100+ in my logbook.

If you don't need the back seat and extra 15ish knots, even a C152 is a nicer flying aeroplane, for less money than either. But I'd much rather be flying, for example an AA5, a TB9 or TB10, or Europa for most of the flying I do at the very least - all of them are cheaper, all handle nicer, and most are faster.


I think my advice would be to rent initially, look hard at the sort of flying you are *actually* doing. Do you really need IFR capability? - seems unlikely on a LAPL. Do you really need the back seat?, most of us don't. And whilst you're doing that chat to people at your local airfields, look at what the real flying enthusiasts are flying, read through some copies of Light Aviation and Microlight Flying which should be readily found around club houses and see the enormous range of aeroplanes our there which aren't expensive 4-seat CessPips.

G

[Paul_Sengupta]

How important are the other people in the group when joining these things?

Quite important. It'll determine availability, attitude to getting things fixed, etc.

provided I can pay the money and have a plane thats reasonably available and safe/well maintained I dont think I'd be worried about much else....or am I oversimplifying things?

You can't look on a share like that. It'll be *your* aeroplane, you buy part of that aeroplane. It's not a rental any more. It's not up to other people to look after and for you to fly. You'll own an equal share with the others. It'll be partly up to you to make sure it's safe/well maintained. You need to worry about what the group rules say for availability. A friend of mine bought into a four person group, two of whom always flew together, and would book the aircraft for every weekend day for the whole of the summer. I said that wasn't on, they should have group rules where you can only make three advanced bookings, and a certain number of weekends away or maybe a larger number of weekdays away.

What did you do after passing? Trying to find an unbiased opinion seems really hard!

I rented from the club for a while (fairly cheap club at Cardiff), then got into a non-equity rental thing, before, about 5 years after qualifying, buying my own aeroplane outright.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just agreeing with Paul on a point here - I'd rather be in a good syndicate with a problematic aeroplane, than a dysfunctional syndicate with a perfect aeroplane.

Good aeroplanes can deteriorate, poor aeroplanes can get sorted out, but a broken syndicate is usually unfixable.

G

[Shoestring Flyer]

My advice would to rent for a while,say at the very least 12months if you only plan on doing 20-40hours pa. It will take time to build up your flying skill set.
It is not like passing your car test where everything soon becomes second nature, it will almost certainly take time to become self assured of all the different aspects there are to becoming a safe and confident pilot.
After that time you will have a clearer picture in your mind of where you see your future flying hobby going be it Touring, Grass strip flying, Microlights. etc and will then be able to make a better judgement of what type of aircraft will suit your purpose.
Good Luck!....Whatever type of flying you end up doing it is all great fun.

[Rod1]

Do you want to give us a very approximate idea of your location? It has a lot of impact on what options are likely to be available. In the midlands you can buy a share in an LAA two seat aircraft based on a strip for around £3k for a 5th, £50 per month and £45 per hour wet. If you end up flying 40h a year you will save a lot of cash and probably have more fun. I would suggest you buy a block of time in the 152 and find out about your local strut and local strips. Many groups will what you to have around 100h TT before you join. As has been said, the people are more important than the aircraft.

Rod1

[G-JWTP]

Drive or fly ( depending on your view on, risk v experience ) into the LAA rally at the end of August.

You will probably see most of the types of aircraft you could fly all in one place.

Wander about and ask questions .

Pilots never seem to tire talking about their aeroplanes.

G-JWTP

[riverrock]

I was in a syndicate before I completed my PPL (I finished my PPL using that group aircraft).

The aircraft does depend on your mission profile. If not flying much, renting may end up cheaper (no upfront fee).

If doing more than 20 hours a year though, getting into a group is generally cheaper then renting. However, expect to be spending time helping to run the group (and aircraft) which could mean helping with maintenance etc. One of the groups I'm in has a few pre-PPL members who are on the management team of the group (treasurer and chair) although that group is a bit of an oddity (and is well supported by some overworked other members, including an LAA inspector and some instructors).

[davef77]

I too would recommend waiting for a bit before buying.

I would also recommend that you experiment. Try other forms of flying, try a taildragger, try some strip flying, try some aerobatics, try gliding, microlight. Find out what really lights you up!

Once you know what kind of flying you really enjoy, then decide on what to buy into.

I think that too many people buy into groups in aeroplanes that they trained in. As @Genghis the Engineer said, these are not the most interesting aeroplanes to fly.

If you really want to be spoilt for the rest of your flying career, go fly a Pitts

[David Viewing]

Go West young man! Literally! (or lady - you don't say)

I had 70 UK Hrs in my logbook when I first pitched up at a Las Vegas flight school and asked about solo rental. To my astonishment, then and still now, they said "Yup".

There's a whole world of unencumbered, hassle free flying out there that (for the most part) speaks our language and follows our traditions. While the airplanes are not as cheap as they were in those heady days of $2.50 / £, they are still affordable when compared with the rates here. And that's before you factor in the sheer utility of flying in the US, when you want, where you want, the way you want it.

Of course there's some bureaucracy, and quite a bit of new stuff to learn, but none of that's a big deal for someone who's just completed a UK PPL. The US is a vast playpen specially provided for the benefit of Brits who've fought their way through the perverse, cranky pea soup of UK aviation and just want to enjoy their newly earned right (It's not a 'privilege' there) to fly.

[neaton]

Go West young man! Literally! (or lady - you don't say)

I had 70 UK Hrs in my logbook when I first pitched up at a Las Vegas flight school and asked about solo rental. To my astonishment, then and still now, they said "Yup".

I don't think they would with a LAPL (but I certainly stand to be corrected).

[Chris Martyr]

Join the LAA................

[Shoestring Flyer]

Of course there's some bureaucracy, and quite a bit of new stuff to learn, but none of that's a big deal for someone who's just completed a UK PPL. The US is a vast playpen specially provided for the benefit of Brits who've fought their way through the perverse, cranky pea soup of UK aviation and just want to enjoy their newly earned right (It's not a 'privilege' there) to fly.

The OP says though that he taking his LAPL skills test which is 15hours short I think of a full UK/EASA PPL.
So still a bit to learn and wait a while and rent would still be my advice.

[JoeC]

Check out the availability of your club aircraft for the next month or so to get an idea of how realistic renting would be. Also ask them their policy on who comes first - students or renters - FIs may well bump you if the aircraft they are booked in goes tech or a trail flight comes in. Do you get a choice of rental aircraft or are you always left with the **** one that the FIs don't want...