Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Crash one
#1619749
Maxthelion wrote:
Crash one wrote:You claim you are not asking special privileges yet you seem to think the other pilot should find it easier to see you rather than you see him.
If you are spending a lot of time looking at your wing or your position in your box, you are not keeping a lookout for traffic, why should you be surprised that the other guy didn't see you? He has as much right not to see you as you have to not see him.


I'm flummoxed by this. How can the Cessna driver in Dave's video have anything other than a terrible lookout, as obviously he wasn't head down in an Ipad because to suggest he was is patently offensive. In the video I would describe Dave as 'somewhat busy', and because of this it's excusable for him not to have spotted the Cessna sooner. Just what is it that Cessna drivers are doing all day that excuses them from see and avoid?


I'm going to bite.
In the video the Cessna appears black underneath, he may have been turning right showing the underside of his left wing. So he may have seen Dave.
2 the distance didn't look to me as dangerously close, he may have been inside the "box" but unless it was notamed he has a right to be there.
3 As said Cessnas are the most diabolical for lookout.
4 And that is what Cessna drivers do all day, frantically try to see out past all the door pillars, high cowling, struts etc.
5 I've been a lot closer than that to other aircraft flying gliders on a crowded ridge.
6 The three or five mile separation rule applies to passenger jets and others, not to every tin pot spam can, otherwise we would never get anywhere.
My opinion is that this video is making a mountain out of a molehill, and to slag off Cessna drivers in this fashion is a disgraceful insult, to put it mildly enough not to get banned.
If you want to do aerobatics in class G without a notam do it over the sea, out of everyone's way, unless of course you want to impress Aunty Joan.
And bear in mind when you are busy that keeping a lookout is your first priority, not the accuracy of your Cuban eight. :D
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By Maxthelion
#1619758
Just so we're clear, does..
2 the distance didn't look to me as dangerously close, he may have been inside the "box" but unless it was notamed he has a right to be there.
mean that you think that to fly close* to another aircraft that is constantly and rapidly changing direction and that hasn't seen you is OK because of your right to both be in class G airspace at the same time?

*Dave was filming with a Gopro which has a wide angle lense on it that makes everything look further away than it is. If Dave felt the need to temporarily halt his sequence, it wasn't because the Cessna was comfortably far away.
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By davef77
#1619808
Crash one wrote:You claim you are not asking special privileges yet you seem to think the other pilot should find it easier to see you rather than you see him.
If you are spending a lot of time looking at your wing or your position in your box, you are not keeping a lookout for traffic, why should you be surprised that the other guy didn't see you? He has as much right not to see you as you have to not see him.


Well it is easier!

When I am flying aerobatics I am working VERY hard, flying the manouvers acurately, positioning them in the “box”, evaluating my performance, avoiding flying too low or over-sressing my aeroplane, or me as well as all the normal things of keeping a lookout, monitoring engine parameters, etc, etc.

I think that it is inevitable that my attention will be more divided than when I am flying S&L.

I am not, and did not criticise the right of anyone to fly in the same bit of class G as me.

As someone who flies S&L sometimes as well as flying aerobatics, I think that it is a matter of fact that it is more difficult (if not impossible) to keep the same kind of scan going, when pulling 7 or 8 G or pushing 4 or 5 G, as I do when flying S&L.

I would like to point out that in my example, despite it being harder, I did see the Cessna while in the middle of my sequence, and the pilot in the Cessna did not demonstrate that they had seen me in any way.

We can all have a bad day, maybe that is all that happened here, the Cessna pilot got distracted for a few minutes and didn’t see me.
User avatar
By davef77
#1619811
Crash one wrote:
Maxthelion wrote:
Crash one wrote:I'm going to bite.
In the video the Cessna appears black underneath, he may have been turning right showing the underside of his left wing. So he may have seen Dave.
2 the distance didn't look to me as dangerously close, he may have been inside the "box" but unless it was notamed he has a right to be there.
3 As said Cessnas are the most diabolical for lookout.
4 And that is what Cessna drivers do all day, frantically try to see out past all the door pillars, high cowling, struts etc.
5 I've been a lot closer than that to other aircraft flying gliders on a crowded ridge.
6 The three or five mile separation rule applies to passenger jets and others, not to every tin pot spam can, otherwise we would never get anywhere.
My opinion is that this video is making a mountain out of a molehill, and to slag off Cessna drivers in this fashion is a disgraceful insult, to put it mildly enough not to get banned.
If you want to do aerobatics in class G without a notam do it over the sea, out of everyone's way, unless of course you want to impress Aunty Joan.
And bear in mind when you are busy that keeping a lookout is your first priority, not the accuracy of your Cuban eight. :D


The Cessna was flying S&L across my track. They maintained course, speed, height and direction for all the time that I had them in sight.

I agree that this was not a dangerous conflict, I didn’t deem it necessary to file an airprox for instance. Had I not seen them, though, we would have been a lot closer, because I was pull to a 45 degree up-line. Instead I paused to give them time to clear the bit of sky I intended to fly through.

While I don’t mean to demonise the Cessna pilot, class G is just as much mine as yours or theirs. My flying obsession is competition aerobatics. To be any good at that I need to practice a lot. As we have discussed, that means that my lookout is sometimes compromised.

Based on the comments that I have read here over the years, and the things that I have seen in the air, I think that my lookout is not too bad. I spend more time looking out of the window than most pilots here have admitted to in the past.

I assume that your comment about flying over the sea is just flippant so will ignore it :thumleft:
By Crash one
#1619840
What gets up my nose is the general assumption by quite a few pilots, not necessarily aerobatic pilots, that pilots of one or two makes of aircraft are some how lacking in airmanship.
If I fly a Cessna and miss seeing someone who sees me, that makes me a numpty.
If I fly my Emeraude with a far better field of view, and of course it has a tail wheel!! Then I am not quite such a numpty.
Don't expect others to see you just because you are gyrating around in the same spot and life is difficult for you, that's not other people's problem.
As for the video, wide angle lens etc. The view as seen in the video looks like the Cessna was well clear.
If he was a lot closer than the video appears then that may be a different issue. And may have got a different response from me.
And NO I don't think it's ok to fly close to someone doing aerobatics just because I have the right to do so. The ground is full of people who had the right of way.
All I'm saying is. Don't be "surprised" when someone doesn't see you, it happens a hell of a lot.
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By Wide-Body
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1619848
Dave, do you get a radar service from a local unit. I have found EGLF and Benson being helpful. They tend to inform people about 7004’s

Mind you, it doesn’t matter who is “in the right” in the event of a collision when your dead your dead.
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1619871
Rob P wrote:
Does everyone squawk 7004?


My HASELL check has now been modified to HASTELL, the T being "transponder" :thumright:
By Crash one
#1619874
Of course it matters, as you are spiralling downward in a ball of fire, it's quite reassuring to think "well, it wasn't my fault, I had the right of way, so there!" :thumleft:
By chipmeisterc
#1619931
If you want to do aerobatics in class G without a notam do it over the sea, out of everyone's way


@Crash one that sounds awfully like you are trying to claim special privileges in Class G.

In a hobby burdened with increasing regulation, cost, airspace restrictions and disalpearing airfields I fail to understand this them vs us attitude displayed by some. It's tiresome.

Bizjet, paraglider, flexwing, spam can (couldn't resist :)), helicopter, fast jet, drone, rc aircraft - whatever wierd and wonderful contraption you fly, we are a band of a select few that get to taste and regularly experience the joy of flight. It is the responsibility of all to keep a good look out for others, fly within the privileges of our licences/regulations and work together to ensure the continued enjoyment of our hobby for all.
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By Crash one
#1619987
chipmeisterc wrote:
If you want to do aerobatics in class G without a notam do it over the sea, out of everyone's way


@Crash one that sounds awfully like you are trying to claim special privileges in Class G.

In a hobby burdened with increasing regulation, cost, airspace restrictions and disalpearing airfields I fail to understand this them vs us attitude displayed by some. It's tiresome.

Bizjet, paraglider, flexwing, spam can (couldn't resist :)), helicopter, fast jet, drone, rc aircraft - whatever wierd and wonderful contraption you fly, we are a band of a select few that get to taste and regularly experience the joy of flight. It is the responsibility of all to keep a good look out for others, fly within the privileges of our licences/regulations and work together to ensure the continued enjoyment of our hobby for all.


As usual, pick a sentence out of context and pick holes in it.
I'm not and never have tried to claim any special privileges.
The them and us syndrome is one of my pet hates in this hobby.
I've flown and enjoyed gliders, fixed wing power, gyroplanes and have never in my life considered one to be superior to another.
I have on the other hand occasionally got annoyed at some glider pilots who think all power pilots are blind or don't keep a lookout and can't fly as good as they can. (Them and us)
I've nothing against someone doing aeros in class G, just don't be surprised if the pilot of a Cessna with a seriously rubbish field of view, doesn't see you.
"Them and us" please, give me a break!! You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.
No you're not getting s smiley!!
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By flyguy
#1620199
Crash one wrote:
Maxthelion wrote:
Crash one wrote:You claim you are not asking special privileges yet you seem to think the other pilot should find it easier to see you rather than you see him.
If you are spending a lot of time looking at your wing or your position in your box, you are not keeping a lookout for traffic, why should you be surprised that the other guy didn't see you? He has as much right not to see you as you have to not see him.


I'm flummoxed by this. How can the Cessna driver in Dave's video have anything other than a terrible lookout, as obviously he wasn't head down in an Ipad because to suggest he was is patently offensive. In the video I would describe Dave as 'somewhat busy', and because of this it's excusable for him not to have spotted the Cessna sooner. Just what is it that Cessna drivers are doing all day that excuses them from see and avoid?


I'm going to bite.
In the video the Cessna appears black underneath, he may have been turning right showing the underside of his left wing. So he may have seen Dave.
2 the distance didn't look to me as dangerously close, he may have been inside the "box" but unless it was notamed he has a right to be there.
3 As said Cessnas are the most diabolical for lookout.
4 And that is what Cessna drivers do all day, frantically try to see out past all the door pillars, high cowling, struts etc.
5 I've been a lot closer than that to other aircraft flying gliders on a crowded ridge.
6 The three or five mile separation rule applies to passenger jets and others, not to every tin pot spam can, otherwise we would never get anywhere.
My opinion is that this video is making a mountain out of a molehill, and to slag off Cessna drivers in this fashion is a disgraceful insult, to put it mildly enough not to get banned.
If you want to do aerobatics in class G without a notam do it over the sea, out of everyone's way, unless of course you want to impress Aunty Joan.
And bear in mind when you are busy that keeping a lookout is your first priority, not the accuracy of your Cuban eight. :D


Well bitten!

And I completely agree.
By Maxthelion
#1620217
I think aerobatic outfits based inland such as those at White Waltham and others would not be economically viable if they needed to fly to the nearest coast before commencing. Notamming every last aerobatic flight is frankly laughable as well. I believe Little Gransden has aerobatics permanently Notammed in the overhead or very nearby, which is a great solution for that particular airfield but isn't practical for most others.
Also I think Crash One is getting the wrong end of the stick with the 'Cessna drivers' thing. Cessnas were only brought up because a Cessna featured in Dave's video. Any pilot with a poor lookout flying any type could have featured in that video.
By Crash one
#1620696
Crash one did not get the wrong end of the stick.
"What do Cessna drivers do all day?" Was mentioned.
As I said Cessnas are diabolical for field of view, it's not the drivers fault if he can't see, it is his fault for flying one perhaps :D