[TLRippon]

So who has right of way?

You are flying along in class G and up ahead is someone doing aerobatics taking up a large box of airspace.
In the south-east that could be up to the base of CAS.
By the nature of what is happening one second you are approaching the aerobat from his left and the next second from his right. Who is giving way?

[davef77]

a Cessna flying through my practice area

Its not though is it Dave - Its Class G isnt it ? I think thats whats p****ng people off....

I wasn’t commenting on his “right to be there” he had as much right as me.

We can all get distracted from time to time, but I was a bit surprised that they didn’t see me, because I was, essentially, in the same place for a long time.

I fully realise that my practice areas are not mine

[davef77]

So who has right of way?

You are flying along in class G and up ahead is someone doing aerobatics taking up a large box of airspace.
In the south-east that could be up to the base of CAS.
By the nature of what is happening one second you are approaching the aerobat from his left and the next second from his right. Who is giving way?

So I can say with some confidence what I would do, because it happens to me regularly. Flying to avoid other aerobats out practicing is common for me.

I will fly to try and remain clear of their practice area. I will waggle my wings and move about to try and make my presence more visible and I will fly to try and keep the aerobat in sight as I make my way.

My reasoning is that it is easier for me, flying relatively straight and level to keep them in-sight and stay out of their way, than for them when they have more going on in the cockpit at that moment.

For non-aerobatic pilots, most people practicing aerobatics will usually be doing that with reference to some ground feature. So they will fly and tend to keep over the same patch of ground.

For competition pilots like me we will be practicing as though flying in an “aerobatic box” which is a 1km cube. So we should be fairly easy to avoid with only small deviations off-track.

As I have said in a previous post, I am not trying to claim any special access to the places where I practice. I post this only in the hope that helping non-aerobatic pilots to understand what we aerobats are doing may help keep us all a little bit safer.

[davef77]

Oops I also meant to say...

The rules of the air still apply, but it is not always possible, while flying aerobatics, to be looking where you are going.

Aerobatic pilots spend a LOT of their time looking at the wing!

As I said, I claim no special privilege here, but the practicalities are that it is easier for one pilot to see and avoid than the other. Or maybe I should say that “you’d think that would be the case”

[Crash one]

You claim you are not asking special privileges yet you seem to think the other pilot should find it easier to see you rather than you see him.
If you are spending a lot of time looking at your wing or your position in your box, you are not keeping a lookout for traffic, why should you be surprised that the other guy didn't see you? He has as much right not to see you as you have to not see him.

[neilmurg]

IF you think logically it is very very different and in fact opening the soft top at 80-100 .......My question still stands please

They have canopies, that as others have said, will be ripped-off if you eject them. They are designed to do this.

So pretty much like opening the soft top at 80-100mph? :annoyingsmugface:

[Maxthelion]

You claim you are not asking special privileges yet you seem to think the other pilot should find it easier to see you rather than you see him.
If you are spending a lot of time looking at your wing or your position in your box, you are not keeping a lookout for traffic, why should you be surprised that the other guy didn't see you? He has as much right not to see you as you have to not see him.

I'm flummoxed by this. How can the Cessna driver in Dave's video have anything other than a terrible lookout, as obviously he wasn't head down in an Ipad because to suggest he was is patently offensive. In the video I would describe Dave as 'somewhat busy', and because of this it's excusable for him not to have spotted the Cessna sooner. Just what is it that Cessna drivers are doing all day that excuses them from see and avoid?

[riverrock]

There is no qualification required (legally) to jump out of an aircraft using a non-emergency, steerable parachute. The "qualifications" that parachute clubs have are about safety and liability.

[MichaelP]

Lookout is required by everybody.

Aerobatic sequences flow from manoeuvre to manoeuvre and it’s not always possible to look everywhere you should perhaps between each figure.

The best we can do is clear the area before starting the sequence, do as much looking out we can while gyrating in the sky, and hope other people in the air are doing their look out too.

But then we can never know how many near misses we have had in our hours of flying. What we didn’t see we won’t know.

I do aerobatics when I can and in aerobatic aeroplanes there is provision for the door ejection.

The Cessna Aerobat has two hand pulls on the front posts to release the doors...
There’s advantage in this as this type is the most visually restrictive aeroplane in the training schools. It has the highest risk of mid air collision as far as I’m concerned.

There is nothing more fearful than doing a turn in a Cessna. You had better look out, lift a wing, give it a good scan, and then pray you don’t hit anyone while doing your blind turn.
All coordinated turns are blind in the C120/140/150/152/172 and 182, Luscombe, Aeronca Chief, and so on.
Austers, Cubs, and Citabrias are better for having top windows, and forty five degree bank turns and more are relatively safe.

As for iPads. I’ve seen some visually restrictive setups in my time... Some people believe the more electronic information they have the better...
Map in lap means head down I suppose, but does not normally restrict outside view.
I’m all for GPS mapping, it’s necessary here in Asia, but I don’t want it front and centre in my vision.

As for aerobatics in the Shrike Commander there was no point in wearing a parachute as you would not get out of it doing low level aerobatics. But how did Bob get over the mandatory parachute rule in the USA?
Must have had a dispensation, grandfather rights.

[MichaelP]

How about creating a Magenta Line Map?

Aerobatics could be flown in the gaps between magenta lines....

The safest place to do aerobatics is right over the middle of an airfield. An aerobatic box is delineated on the ground, and put in the airport procedures documents.

In Canada they have CYAs published on aeronautical maps suggesting where aerobatics mostly take place.

[Maxthelion]

For aerobaitc competitions there is a box established on one edge of the airfield and notams are published, warning airspace users of the competition and the size and location of the box. Nevertheless, I've probably seen the box infringed at least once every other competition by someone who is not on the airfield frequency and is also merrily bimbling through the airfield's ATZ. It sounds like marking areas on aeronautical maps as per Canada would be a good idea, as long as the locals didn't mind too much.

[Wildcat One]

Michael asked "But how did Bob get over the mandatory parachute rule in the USA? "

ISTR that in FAA-land, it's either a parachute or a secondary lap-belt affixed not to the seat but to the fuselage.

[Maxthelion]

Funnily enough the British Aerobatics Association has a similar rule: Where a parachute is not worn, a secondary seat belt system is required. Note that this is only a competition requirement, and if you want to do aeros in your Tiger Moth with no seat belt fastened and no parachute, you're not in breach of any aeros-specific entry in the ANO, as far as I know.

[Stu B]

France is effectively the same (i.e. aeros areas marked on the chart).
Cutting across to another recent thread here, the possibility of someone doing aeros in the overhead is another good reason to give an airfield a call if you plan to transit above the ATZ.

[riverrock]

Prestwick banned aeros overhead the airport, within the airport boundaries, last year (or year before). There used to be some areas which were well clear of CAT with fields underneath above the cross runway, but apparently someone high up in the airport didn't like them. So I know some people who get ATC to give them a box that is just outside the airport boundary, but within their airspace. One of the ATC used to give feedback afterwards on your practice