Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1613119
By my reckoning, on the patch within which I probably fly half of my annual 100ish hours, in the last year we've had one reportable airprox about every 10 days, about one actually reported a month, and a mid air collision that took four lives. In 1800 hours I've had three airproxes (one reported, two not) close enough that had I failed to take immediate avoiding action I would no longer be alive.

That is worth £400ish of my money (although clearly, sharing the load with the syndicate has no downside!).

Solution looking for a problem? In my mind, the problem is there.

My biggest issue, right now, is that we have five systems out there now transmitting...

Transmitting
Mode A/C
Mode S
ADS-B
FLARM
PAW / P3i

And three receiving...
TCAS / TPAS
FLARM
PAW

And of course there are flying machines transmitting nothing, and most flying machines still have no form of traffic information.


That's a tower of babel, and deeply unsatisfactory. However, having something like PAW in your cockpit is a whole lot better than having nothing, and I'm going for what appears to be the least poor solution - at the moment that's PAW & Mode-S.

I'm entirely willing to believe that in 3 years, something much better will have converged a lot of these standards. And when it does, I'll upgrade.

And I'm the big cynic about moving maps! But I see this somewhat differently.

G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer on Tue May 22, 2018 11:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
#1613120
neilmurg wrote:As I said, it's your choice, I've made mine and I'm happy with it. I don't see why you need to diss it, even if I'm wrong, it's my money and I don't believe it can make me less safe, despite some of the 'head down' fantasy speculation.

[edit] changed biannual to biennial[/edit]


That’s great you chosen how you can see other people. Out of interest what have you chosen to allow other people to see you?

ADS-B via a transponder/GPS or a Skyecho, PAW only or maybe nothing.
Nick liked this
#1613123
Marvin wrote:
neilmurg wrote:That’s great you chosen how you can see other people. Out of interest what have you chosen to allow other people to see you?
In the aircraft that has Mode S, I have Mode S, but there is no cost effective route to upgrade to ADS-B (we have Garmin 330 (xponder) and 430 (GPS). In the other aircraft I fly we have ADS-B in/out.
I'm fully invested in ADS-B (and I guess C etc when it comes), and I'm also prepared to pay for interim solutions while I wait for the rest of you to catch up. How about you? You prefer to be EC blind while you wait for a comprehensive solution?
#1613124
neilmurg wrote:
Marvin wrote:
neilmurg wrote:That’s great you chosen how you can see other people. Out of interest what have you chosen to allow other people to see you?
In the aircraft that has Mode S, I have Mode S, but there is no cost effective route to upgrade to ADS-B (we have Garmin 330 (xponder) and 430 (GPS). In the other aircraft I fly we have ADS-B in/out.
I'm fully invested in ADS-B (and I guess C etc when it comes), and I'm also prepared to pay for interim solutions while I wait for the rest of you to catch up. How about you? You prefer to be EC blind while you wait for a comprehensive solution?


I have ADS-B and FLARM out and ADS-B, Mode S, A/C and FLARM in.

That all works for me in the area I fly in which is very glider intensive.
neilmurg, Nick liked this
#1613126
I guess Im one of the old farts you refer to:

I won’t waste too much time as it’s been said already ad nauseam. Our Arrow group bought a PAW on the basis of evangelical enthusiasm from one member.

And it’s a complete abortion- a mish mash of wires aerials and boxes with a bloody great battery pack.

And there’s nowhere to fit it in an Arrow. I tried it a couple of times and it certainly showed up an a/c which I had already spotted and then it kept reverting to showing CAT at FL nosebleed.

So it’s in a box at the back of the hangar and the battery has vanished.

Sorry, but not for me

Peter (off to buy second rate theatre tickets)

PS this forum really can be gratuitously offensive when it puts its mind to it can’t it?
mikeblyth liked this
#1613128
Marvin wrote:
neilmurg wrote:
Marvin wrote:
In the aircraft that has Mode S, I have Mode S, but there is no cost effective route to upgrade to ADS-B (we have Garmin 330 (xponder) and 430 (GPS). In the other aircraft I fly we have ADS-B in/out.
I'm fully invested in ADS-B (and I guess C etc when it comes), and I'm also prepared to pay for interim solutions while I wait for the rest of you to catch up. How about you? You prefer to be EC blind while you wait for a comprehensive solution?
I have ADS-B and FLARM out and ADS-B, Mode S, A/C and FLARM in.
That all works for me in the area I fly in which is very glider intensive.
That's great, we both believe in EC and are actively implementing the options that suit our environment.
I hope that the rest of GA are doing the same, maybe this thread will help them understand the choices
Marvin liked this
#1613132
PeteSpencer wrote:I guess Im one of the old farts you refer to:
I didn't say old farts, I guess your defining yourself? I'm making an exception, as you are another 'who is currently on your ignore list', I've already said, make your own choices, I'm not prescriptive, just don't be prescriptive of other peoples choices.
You said: 'this forum really can be gratuitously offensive' but I can't see where ANYONE did that in this thread. Do you feel threatened by views you don't agree with?
If you want me to be judgemental about your viewpoint, I can do that, but I can't see how that would help anyone.
...
neilmurg
#1613133
PeteSpencer wrote:PS this forum really can be gratuitously offensive when it puts its mind to it can’t it?


I'd say not. Forums aren't offensive, only posters are good or bad.
#1613135
PB wrote:We (I) am not raving about it because:

• It's essentially a solution searching for a problem. The statistical chance of a mid-air collision is (vanishingly) low and very small compared to all the other ways people choose to do themselves harm in light aircraft.

You did ask...


Tell that to the families of the 6 friends I have lost to mid-air collisions. Say it to my face even, as I killed two of them.
#1613136
gaznav wrote:The latest PAW is £256 according to the weblink earlier in the thread. So not £170 as first posted.


But it's up to you which one you want to buy and they do the same job, so the £139+VAT thing stands.

gaznav wrote:Also, to receive FLARM you need a minimum of a £600 FLARM mouse. So the subject title is a bit misleading.


Maybe, maybe not. The OGN-PAW network now covers a great deal of the country. You should see a coverage map. There's a lot of it about now! :D

gaznav wrote:I think this is a neat feature but I don’t think it could really be relied upon for collision avoidance - more for situational awareness of gliding activity.


As is most EC for GA, it's all situational awareness, not collision avoidance. Flarm has collision avoidance but the rest is just position display.

PB wrote:The statistical chance of a mid-air collision is (vanishingly) low


No, not really. Mid air collision is now about the 3rd or 4th highest cause of fatalities in the air. Not because they're more prevalent than before, but because CFITs and Loss of Controls and "low level manoeuvring" have diminished somewhat over the past 40 years.

PB wrote:Why should they trust a £20 GPS to provide that when it's totally untested, uncertified and unverified?


The GPS is about £7! :D Why trust it? Because it's been shown in practice to be as accurate - actually more accurate (!) - than certified GPSs.

And it's not the PAW people themselves who are evangelists, it's us users! ;-) The more we get out there, the more effective it is to us. And everyone else. It's cheap enough for every aircraft to have one.
seanxair liked this
#1613145
neilmurg wrote:
gaznav wrote:The latest PAW is £256 according to the weblink earlier in the thread. So not £170 as first posted. Also, to receive FLARM you need a minimum of a £600 FLARM mouse. So the subject title is a bit misleading.
That's wrong. Could you PLEASE be more accurate. The PAw is £170, the new Rosetta is £256. PAw receives FLARM via OGN, but only where there's a PAw ground station doing the translation.
That's because FLARM hide their data, not because PAw can't read their transmissions.

In conclusion, £170 is correct, the £600 for FLARM is wrong, the title is accurate and YOU are being misleading. I guess that's why your posts say 'currently on your ignore list' when I look at them.


Ok, so be clear, this is for a PAW Classic, which as I understand it is being replaced by the £256 unit as stocks run out? Anyway, even at £139 + VAT, plus licence (£15+VAT), plus battery (£20-£30) or USB charger (£10-20) it is NOT £170.

The OGN receive capability is ONLY available if you are line of sight with a PAW ground station. It also only broadcasts FLARM equipped aircraft that are line of sight of an OGN receiver - so if one of you is not line of sight with one of the two ground receivers then you will NOT see the FLARM aircraft. That is what I am getting at.

So I still standby the fact that this is misleading. Also, I don’t work for LXnav, FLARM, PAW, Uavionix or any of the other manufacturers, I just have an opinion like you on which is the best solution. On that judgement I mulled it over for several months - so it must have been close!
#1613146
This reminds me that our group needs to look at this again. We have parked it pending decisions on whether we can continue with our Mode S transponder and have a separate ADS - B out/in box. If we can I think we'll go ahead and seek out something that does ADS-B in and out and FLARM in
#1613159
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
PB wrote:Why should they trust a £20 GPS to provide that when it's totally untested, uncertified and unverified?


The GPS is about £7! :D Why trust it? Because it's been shown in practice to be as accurate - actually more accurate (!) - than certified GPSs.


{This is the Geek Stuff}
Ok lets just be clear about this. Yes the work that was undertaken and the follow up analysis did make that claim for non certified GPS however, there is a significant difference between a certified GPS and a non-certified GPS.

For non-certified we are looking at a probability of 1 in 1000 events where the GPS position is not correct. Thats fine for VFR navigation and alerting for potential conflict and hence SIL = 0.

For certified we are looking at 1 in 10,000,000 events inorder that it be considered reliable enough to allow it to be used for separation of traffic and also the possibility of GPS approaches to ILS levels. Hence SIL = 3.

What is also important is not only the SIL (System Integrity Level) but also the end to end System Design Assurance (SDA) and this provides the assurance that the positional information the GPS derives is accurately and constantly displayed, and overlaid on a chart. Again SDA = 0 , 1 in 1,000, versa SDA = 3, 1 in 10,000,000.

I would be surprised if the current offerings of VFR GPS, including PAW, GARMIN 660, SkyDemon, could even contemplate that sort of design assurance to meet the certified requirements while maintaining the cost. Let alone the need to maintain the software updates and AIRAC Database cycles to the same standards for £15 + VAT a year.

I would also suggest that while SkyEcho has a device certified to SIL = 1 that is good perhaps for the transmission of the device GPS location to that level however for the Pilot display because the receiving software devices, SkyDemon, RunWayHD etc are what they are the SDA will still be SDA = 0
{End of Geek Stuff]

So trust has a mixed meaning dependant on the use. For VFR purpose ok, but lets not get carried away.

...... for Lee, see CAP670 and specifically the Requirements for Software Assurance.
nallen, gaznav, Lefty liked this
#1613164
@johnm

We have parked it pending decisions on whether we can continue with our Mode S transponder and have a separate ADS - B out/in box.


You'll have to remain parked for a bit longer as there is still not a 'yes' from the man at the Ministry, saying you can use an ADSB Out box of tricks and Mode S at the same time.

The way I see it, at the moment, is if you have a Mode S transponder you're better off with PAW. You can use the PAW GPS and the extended squitter on your Mode S transponder to chuck out ADSB and you'll get all the inputs that have been discussed ad nauseam.

In my opinion Sky Echo is a bit of a waste of 600 squids because it's a one-trick pony: ADSB In and Out (assuming you don't have a Mode S transponder at the moment). And that is all it will ever be, even if the CAA eventually decide it's all safe to use the box and Mode S.

Sky Echo 2 will be a different kettle of fish because not only will it be ADSB In/Out but it will (allegedly) allow inputs from all the other gizmos, like UAT Wxr, Flarm and/or PAW, so you won't be restricted to just ADSB......and it's cheaper than Sky Echo.

I suppose it's judging when the CAA will make a decision. I seem to remember last Sept a statement saying Uavionix hoped the judgement would be made within 6 months but, alas, March has come and gone and we're still none the wiser.


Edited to add: a bit strange; I've just been looking at the Uavionix website and the Sky Echo they're now showing looks like the Sky Echo 2 (and not the antenna sticking out of a base) but the list of capabilities falls short of the original announcement of Sky Echo 2. I don't know if this is a morphing of the websites as they prepare for SE2 or whether they've downgraded the SE2 capabilities as there's no mention of integrating Flarm/PAW etc and, also, the Mode C/S detection is missing. As I say, this may well still just be listing the Sky Echo capabilities but I hope they haven't cut back on the Sky Echo 2 because it showed promise.
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