Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By gaznav
#1619892
That really is a Daily Mail headline - terrifying! :lol:

Long before EC came along the powered and gliding communities have flown on days like the 21 Jun 18, with probably more gliders and powered aircraft than we see today. We haven’t been clonking into each other on a regular basis because see and avoid is 99% effective (Results of a DRA trial in 1997 called “See-and-avoid operational analysis study”). So I wouldn’t call it “terrifying” and with a little bit of knowledge you can help yourself.

1. The 21 Jun 18 was predicted well ahead to be an exceptional gliding day with ‘cloud streets’ expected and it being the longest day, a long period of thermal activity.
2. There were many NOTAMs from responsible gliding clubs stating that they had cross-country gliding planned.
3. A quick glance at the Open Glider Network (OGN) tells you it was going to be busy.

So staying lower than normal and away from the lift that the cloud streets are providing will keep you away from a lot of the glider traffic. The hardest to spot glider is the one that is belting along at 90kts at height in a straight line under a cloud street, if they are scratching around for lift or thermalling then they are far easier to see as the turn.

Don’t forget that OGN only broadcasts the gliders that are carrying FLARM and that are in range of an OGN ground station. So there will be gliders not electronically visible on OGN and the rebroadcast feature on Pilot Aware. So keep looking out.
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By Full Metal Jackass
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1619899
gaznav wrote:Longfinal, the final piece in the jigsaw is being able to transmit Mode S concurrently with SkyEcho transmitting ADS-B. Trials are ongoing but understood to be positive towards the final outcome. Once that final outcome of concurrent use is approved I am 100% with you.

I also believe that their ergonomics are far superior to both FLARM and Pilot Aware - which is important to me.



Two points:

1) this 'trial' has been ongoing for what, nearly two years now? I've written numerous times asking for updates yet no response. I am pretty sure that the answer will be negative.

2) The ergonomics may be superior but that's of little comfort, knowing you've got a more ergonomic device on the dash which didn't see the glider you've just smashed into.....
Rob P, Wide-Body liked this
#1619910
gaznav wrote:That really is a Daily Mail headline - terrifying! :lol:

Long before EC came along the powered and gliding communities have flown on days like the 21 Jun 18, with probably more gliders and powered aircraft than we see today. We haven’t been clonking into each other on a regular basis because see and avoid is 99% effective (Results of a DRA trial in 1997 called “See-and-avoid operational analysis study”). So I wouldn’t call it “terrifying” and with a little bit of knowledge you can help yourself.

1. The 21 Jun 18 was predicted well ahead to be an exceptional gliding day with ‘cloud streets’ expected and it being the longest day, a long period of thermal activity.
2. There were many NOTAMs from responsible gliding clubs stating that they had cross-country gliding planned.
3. A quick glance at the Open Glider Network (OGN) tells you it was going to be busy.

So staying lower than normal and away from the lift that the cloud streets are providing will keep you away from a lot of the glider traffic.
So keep looking out.


Gaz, really!

You have been giving us the hard sell on "the internationally recognised ADS-B standard" for months, then say "look and avoid is 99% effective and haven't been clonking ........"
And to follow that, fly lower than normal for collision avoidance.

What you are saying is with points 1,2,3, none of which helps see the gliders is, if this predicts high glider traffic the best collision avoidance when using the "internationally recognised ADS-B standard" is to stay on the ground :D

To me 99% sounds very poor effectiveness for see and avoid.
I agree with your last point "So keep looking out".

Fly safe
SL
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By Balliol
#1619921
I understand you will be able to plug a FLARM receiver directly into SkyEcho2 so you get FLARM functionality as well.

The CAA discussed the trial at the Aero Expo presentation and I took away there are no big issues and positive news should be soon.
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By gaznav
#1619922
SL

Mid-Air isn’t the top cause of fatalities but it is preventable to nearly 100% by the use of technology. That is what I am saying. I also don’t find it “terrifying” that so many gliders are airborne. That is my point I am trying to make ;-)

As for the Mode S and portable ADS-B trial - this is the CAA press release dated August 2017 - the trial started after that date

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/ADS-B-can-he ... 4294967430

Best

Gaz
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By leemoore1966
#1619929
gaznav wrote:Don’t forget that OGN only broadcasts the gliders that are carrying FLARM and that are in range of an OGN ground station.


Hi Gaz
Not strictly true
Firstly, the OGN also developed their own OGN trackers, these are also rebroadcast from the groundstation and as far as I am aware, ONLY Pilotaware sees these when airborne. IIRC you had built your own OGN tracker (not for the faint hearted) before investing in your SkyEcho ?

Secondly by looking at the coverage map, the UK does not have many uncovered areas where the gliders tend to fly. If there is somewhere you could highlight as a concern, we would certainly look to enhance that area ?

Finally, the upgrade programme for Classic to Rosetta, requires the donation of the Classic RF Bridge board to the OGN-R rollout. We have had a very positive takeup of this offer, and support to the OGN-R. Hence we will be getting very good coverage continuing in the UK, and beginning a concerted comprehensive rollout into the rest of Europe, where PilotAware is legal to operate :thumleft:
I think it is still the case that CAP1391 devices are still a UK only piece of kit - unless this has changed ?

Flarm have been very supportive of the work done on OGN-R, we have a very good relationship with FLARM in the area of interoperability which was highly commended at the recent EASA meeting in Cologne

The future is looking good, and we continue to be positive in our developments with FLARM and the OGN, there is much more to come which is currently under development...

Thx
Lee
mmcp42, Straight Level, gaznav and 1 others liked this
By Straight Level
#1619948
gaznav wrote:SL

Mid-Air isn’t the top cause of fatalities but it is preventable to nearly 100% by the use of technology. That is what I am saying. I also don’t find it “terrifying” that so many gliders are airborne. That is my point I am trying to make ;-)
As for the Mode S and portable ADS-B trial - this is the CAA press release dated August 2017 - the trial started after that date
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/ADS-B-can-he ... 4294967430
Best
Gaz


Gaz,

My comment was a little tongue in cheek :-)
Agree, MAC isn't the top cause of fatalities, but it might be my highest risk because I mitigate the some of the main others by:-

Not flying in bad wx and certainly not where there is hi ground, so CFIT is low on my list.
Loss of control in flight- I keep reasonably current by flying a modest 50 to 60hrs per year. Correctly or incorrectly I perceive LOCIF lower risk.
And generally I have a "narr not today, tomorrow looks better" decision making attitude.
So to help mitigate my risk of MAC, being my highest perceived risk for the flying I undertake is to spend a bit of cash on EC.

Also agree, the screen grab not so terrifying as literally eye opening, confirmed when I was flying along glider ally the other week. It wasn't the most relaxing 20min flying I've done :shock: , but helped somewhat by having some assistance to visually quire the sometimes multiple conflicting gliders.
And yes, I dis see some that weren't transmitting anything.

Hopefully the trial will approve simultaneous Mode S / ADSB, it will be another step forward as will further uptake of EC in any of the currently available flavours. :thumleft:

SL
Last edited by Straight Level on Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Full Metal Jackass
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1619953
gaznav wrote:SL

Mid-Air isn’t the top cause of fatalities but it is preventable to nearly 100% by the use of technology. That is what I am saying. I also don’t find it “terrifying” that so many gliders are airborne. That is my point I am trying to make ;-)

As for the Mode S and portable ADS-B trial - this is the CAA press release dated August 2017 - the trial started after that date

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/ADS-B-can-he ... 4294967430

Best

Gaz


My mistake, it was the LPAT trial / uncertified GPS source coupled to a Mode S -ES transponder which was announced to have been completed successfully in March 2016; the trial was started and completed successfully within a short period of time, but what has happened since then? Fast Food, ie Burger All.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1619959
GrahamB wrote:If there was ever a good reason for spending a couple of hundred quid on PAW, even if you chuck it away once ADSB becomes universal, that’s it.


You won't need to chuck it away if and when ADS-B becomes universal. It functions well as an ADS-B receiver, and if the PilotAware software went away completely, you could still use the hardware with the Stratux software to have a pure ADS-B-only receiver.
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By gaznav
#1619967
This is all good news as it looks like convergence is occurring - SkyEcho seeing PilotAware/FLARM and PFLARM seeing SkyEcho and PilotAware seeing SkyEcho/OGN (rebroadcast FLARM). :thumleft:

(I may have missed others!)
User avatar
By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1619969
@Paul_Sengupta I wasn’t suggesting you needed to chuck it away, just that even if you did replace it with something better/more integrated once the landscape settles down it’s hardly a big investment.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1619971
And I was saying that even if you think it is a fair bit of cash to spend, that investment won't be wasted whatever happens! :D

Full Metal Jackass wrote:uncertified GPS source coupled to a Mode S -ES transponder which was announced to have been completed successfully in March 2016; the trial was started and completed successfully within a short period of time, but what has happened since then? Fast Food, ie Burger All.


Not completely true, if you have a permit aircraft you can now use an uncertified GPS as your transponder source.
User avatar
By gaznav
#1619983
@leemoore1966

Hi Lee

by looking at the coverage map, the UK does not have many uncovered areas where the gliders tend to fly. If there is somewhere you could highlight as a concern, we would certainly look to enhance that area ?


Looking at the OGN coverage area there are still significant gaps around areas adjacent to the South West, Isle of Wight, Solent, Southend, Skegness, Lincolnshire Wolds, Kent, Chester, Kidderminster, Bridgwater, central Wales and South West Wales. It is even more sparse up North in England and Scotland. Further, the red sites on the map are inactive - ours goes down from time to time but luckily there is back up close by (~6nm away)..

Image

Don’t get me wrong, I think your rebroadcast is a really great initiative, it’s just that there is no guarantee that Pilot Aware will see every FLARM that is out there. As ever, I think it is important that people realise the limitations of what they might, or might not, see.

The OGN beacon that I started putting together is 99% finished, but I never got around to finishing it off for airborne use. I bought a SkyEcho before finishing it as I figured that the OGN beacon was just introducing yet another standard into an already congested market. :thumleft:

Best, Gaz

PS. Just been doing a bit of OSINT and just to illustrate my point on the possible fragility of rebroadcast, I found that the following OGN-R sites appear to have all gone down on varying days:

2 PWAldersh Thu Apr 19 21:41:39 BST 2018 DOWN + 1853580
8 PWChernog Tue May 08 19:51:17 BST 2018 DOWN + 218602
12 PWDeanlan Sat May 05 06:32:25 BST 2018 DOWN + 525734
13 PWDiss Sun Apr 22 00:45:31 BST 2018 DOWN + 1669748
19 PWEGHPTEM Thu May 03 22:29:48 BST 2018 DOWN + 641091
20 PWEGNO Wed May 09 19:09:57 BST 2018 DOWN + 134682
21 PWEGSF Sat May 05 06:33:01 BST 2018 DOWN + 525698
22 PWEGTU Tue May 08 13:26:45 BST 2018 DOWN + 241674
27 PWHusBos Wed May 09 05:43:00 BST 2018 DOWN + 183099
33 PWOrwell2 Sun Apr 29 12:11:14 BST 2018 DOWN + 1023805
34 PWOxford Sat Apr 28 10:28:29 BST 2018 DOWN + 1116370
36 PWRedhill Sat May 05 04:37:46 BST 2018 DOWN + 532613
40 PWSnitter Fri May 04 11:17:01 BST 2018 DOWN + 595058
48 PWUKDOG Sat Apr 28 10:45:13 BST 2018 DOWN + 1115366
51 PWUKGRL Wed May 09 19:09:45 BST 2018 DOWN + 134694
56 PWUKRAT Sat Apr 21 18:37:42 BST 2018 DOWN + 1691817
57 PWUKRUT Sun Apr 22 13:14:15 BST 2018 DOWN + 1624824
59 PWUKTIB Tue May 08 18:37:58 BST 2018 DOWN + 223001
64 PWukprk Tue May 01 17:18:17 BST 2018 DOWN + 832582
Last edited by gaznav on Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Full Metal Jackass
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1620035
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Full Metal Jackass wrote:uncertified GPS source coupled to a Mode S -ES transponder which was announced to have been completed successfully in March 2016; the trial was started and completed successfully within a short period of time, but what has happened since then? Fast Food, ie Burger All.


Not completely true, if you have a permit aircraft you can now use an uncertified GPS as your transponder source.


And what benefit does that bring for those of us who fly certified aircraft? The square root of SFA.....
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