[Flintstone]

Well they can’t if it’s impossible to fit.

[Full Metal Jackass]

Well they can’t if it’s impossible to fit.

In my dictionary, there's no such word as IMPOSSIBLE

But then again, neither are all words between IMPERTINENT and INCONTINENT in that dictionary since my pet Hamster got hold of it.....

[cadoganpier]

Every time we get into an aircraft we make a call based on our own perception of risk. If I could fly an aircraft with a BRS system of course I would and I would make sure I knew how to use it, but I don't so I try and make what limited flying I have done as risk free as possible. The idea of wearing a parachute in the "spamcans" I fly doesn't appeal and for me wouldn't work for practical reasons, I way up the slim theoretical safety advantage against the huge inconvenience and discomfort it would cause and the maths don't work, but we humans are strange folk, some people smoke despite the known risks and ride motorcycles and do all manor of statistically dangerous things because they are fun and we all think it probably won't happen to us. Road deaths could be drastically reduced if all cars were fitted with an MSA approved roll cage, a six point harness and we all wore crash helmets but it's to much inconvenience isn' it, so we don't. The sort of anti BRS chat I hear seems to be an echo of the arguments put forward for not wearing seat belts in cars, in some limited scenarios there might be no advantage but I suspect in the vast number of cases there is.

[tomshep]

Cars are heavy because they are designed to crash Aeroplanes are light because they are designed not to.
A BRS, properly fitted and deployed is a life extender, there is no doubt about that but if I thought the aircraft was unairworthy I wouldn't be in it in the first place. My risk assessment is that I am more likely to cease to function than the aircraft is and not having either the reaction time nor the training of an aerobatic pilot, I wouldn't be able to do what he did- especially in a single door aircraft that could not be fitted with one.
If that makes me a dangerous gung-ho risk taker, so be it. I am perfectly acclimatised to experincing 160MPH closing speeds at distances of less than three feet where the closing object's conductor does not have any apparent spatial awareness. Daily. The risk of a wing coming off is very, very small.

[RichardPearse]

My ceasing to function is part of the reason my next plane will probably have an airframe parachute. I fly a bit with young family members - probably more so in future - and while I'm in fine health it's not a nice thought that something could happen to me while airborne and they wouldn't have a chance.

Another part of the reason is that I fly microlights. And a lot of the newer designs you end up with slightly more payload if you fit a chute. It's an expensive way to gain 12-odd kg, but every little helps at the lighter end of GA.

I can see how the decision might be less clear cut, or no decision at all, for others though

[2Donkeys]

How long before the lawyers use lack of a BRS as a reason to sue?

It's always 'the lawyers' that get the flak. The insurers bear the brunt of any costs when accidents of this sort occur, and it will be that industry, rather than the legal industry that will determine whether a BRS is a necessity in the future.

Fortunately, such events as this are sufficiently rare that neither industry is likely to place non-BRS aircraft on the scrapheap before they would naturally retire there through old age.

[Joe Dell]

How long before the lawyers use lack of a BRS as a reason to sue?

It's always 'the lawyers' that get the flak. The insurers bear the brunt of any costs when accidents of this sort occur, and it will be that industry, rather than the legal industry that will determine whether a BRS is a necessity in the future

The Legal industry will always go for the money. Whether they believe the target to be culpable or not. You can't bank scruples.

The Legal industry did an almost fatal hatchet job on the American light aircraft industry not so long ago.

[Bill McCarthy]

I have tried to weigh up the monetary costs of an installation which would be much more than my Sluka is worth. I reckon anything other than a structural failure would be survivable as I can land at 30MPH, and in about thirty yards - not any worse than falling of a bicycle.

In the submarine service, tens of millions of pounds are expended on escape equipment and training (the escape suits themselves are thousands of pounds each). Beyond the continental shelf the whole lot would be totally useless. In addition, when I left the mob, about eight men from Uk and other world navies had perished on separate incidents, doing the SETT Gosport escape training. I do believe that training is theory only now.

[2Donkeys]

The Legal industry did an almost fatal hatchet job on the American light aircraft industry not so long ago

Ah yes. And now seat rails on Cessnas are safer.

[Flintstone]

Well they can’t if it’s impossible to fit.

In my dictionary, there's no such word as IMPOSSIBLE

But then again, neither are all words between IMPERTINENT and INCONTINENT in that dictionary since my pet Hamster got hold of it.....

Try looking up 'sympathy'.

It's somewhere between shlt and syphillis.

[kanga]

..
It's always 'the lawyers' that get the flak. ...

.. but in the USA that's at least partly fair. There, for any sort of mishap, there will be 'no win, no fee' lawyers who will tempt potential plaintiff 'victims' and go after the defendants with deepest (apparent) pockets, in return for a hefty share not only of the demonstrable (loosely defined) damages and all costs, but also the much greater 'exemplary' damages. For these court (ie lay jury) must be persuaded that defendant is not only liable but the defendant's action demonstrated some element of 'gross' offence of action or omission. Also potentially very profitable is a 'class action' suit, where the case is brought on by such a lawyer (with share of damages if won) on behalf of many plaintiffs, even ones who are not yet knowingly associated with the case. Furthermore, it is easier in some States than others, so such lawyers will seek any excuse, however loose, to bring the action in such States. California is supposed to be the most profitable, with a tradition of indulgent judges, juries swayable by courtroom histrionics, and large settlements.

[Flyin'Dutch']

IANAL, nor a US resident, but follow the US scene quite closely both from a professional and personal perspective, and it would be my observation that a lot of 'real life' requirements are driven by insurance requirements, rather than legal or certificatory considerations.

[MichaelP]

I was at lunch one day in the airport greasy spoon when the wife of one of the pilots happily mentioned how they barrel rolled the Piper Arrow II again and again all the way down after a flight around Mount Baker.
She had been sitting on the back seat.

Who am I to talk, I do likewise in the Chipmunk, barreling down to lose altitude, and even doing low powered loops... Just enough power to keep the engine warm.

I may be wrong, but I think the Arrow is stressed to different maximum load factors...

I advised the owner of the Arrow about this.

Some time later an AN2 modified the wings of this particular Arrow with its big four blade propeller... They had to be replaced.
Apparently the propeller fitted to the Antonov is stressed to higher limits.

I have barrel rolled a few aeroplanes in my time, where I know the ailerons work, and the structure is strong enough should I make a mess of it.
I have only ever once made a mess of a barrel roll, this was in the Super Cab (GY30) which spun off the slightly excessive G I was using. It recovered from the spin.

Two aeroplanes I would never ever barrel roll are the flexible Cessna 172, (you can bust the windscreen), and the Piper Cherokee.
I spin many aeroplanes, and the Cherokee 140 is spinnable, but I am resistant to spinning one! Not comfortable.

So what about the subject aircraft.
Very sad, and we do not know what manoeuvres were flown before the wing came off.
The damage may have been done several flights before, and stored until that particular flight, and that particular moment to come off.

I have seen this before.
The Stampe would sometimes come back with 7gs on the meter... Inspection time.
Used for a lot of training, and even I screwed up aerobating it...
Then one day the tie bars failed, and I lost two good friends... But was it landings or aerobatics that lead to their failure?

The wing coming off a Evektor in Switzerland lead me to look carefully at the shiny new Sportstar we had. 'Different wing I was told, but flying in an EV97 from Goodwood a while back did cause a question in the back of my mind.

Here we have a P68 Victor, and there are two records of wings coming off... Of course doing airshow aerobatics and pulling at high speed might have a little to do with one of them, and a wing 'collision' on the ground was supposedly responsible for the other.

We could all try to emulate Neil Williams in the Zlin I suppose...
He proved that a parachute was unnecessary in a competition aerobatic aeroplane

So far I have never had a situation where I might have wanted a parachute. I wear them when they are there, and am not bothered when they are not.
BRS is okay I suppose, but it does eat into your payload.
Like everything in life, there are hazards, we assess risks, and we live accordingly.

[Nick]

BRS is okay I suppose, but it does eat into your payload.
Like everything in life, there are hazards, we assess risks, and we live accordingly.

Hear Hear

Nick

[Rob P]

..., but the evidence is that if you do get out, even as low as 5/600 feet you can still make it.

P51 at Duxford bale-out video here

It is, but only if, like Rob Davies in the P51 you import a special low-level operation chute at considerable expense. Try that in an everyday chute and be prepared for to create a small, person-shaped depression in the soil.

Rob P