[GolfHotel]

GH, you have always come over on the Forum as a stickler for the rules, so your integrity was beyond question.

However there are plenty of skim readers on here who grab at the one liner they want to see and it goes on from there.

Re your post above : if the particular class of airspace requires TSO, LA1 etc kit then it’s an additional requirement to LAA approval. The LAA can’t magic TSO-146C approval onto any old bit of kit just ‘cos you want it to be so.

Glad I come over as a stickler for the rules. LOL Love to stretch them to the limit. But they do have to be observed. Flying in France one day the the controller asked me to confirm I was VMC, I duly confirmed that. He then asked a local pilot near by if he was visual with me. I think everyone, including the controller, was a bit surprised he could spot me. But I would never try to influence anyone to ignore the rules.

I don't want to magic any approvals, neither do the LAA as I understand it. One of the problems of flying some certified aircraft is the instrument fit. For instance Cirrus don't have a DME. That make many ILS or RNAV approaches a problem.

[GolfHotel]

If you have your RV-7 cleared by the LAA for flight in IMC, I don't think that clearance is valid outside the UK though, is it?

As I understand it and have been told, on here so it must be right. Yes it is valid outside the UK. I suppose they could restrict you to VMC if they so choose.

I'm not sure about this, having a memory that (being an LAA dispensation from the CAA, not EASA) it is only a UK validity.

It is only a half-memory though. Do you have a reference from previous posts on here?

Sorry can't remember enough to find it.

But the PtF is issued by the LAA. So to fly in France you need permission, but there is a blanket permission. To go to Spain you have to get specific permission. Either country might decide to limit you to VFR, or allow IMC if approved by the LAA.

After all it is very common in the USA to fly IFR in experimental. But despite all that experience showing its quite safe some are still reluctant to accept it here. (thats not aimed at any particular person on here.)

[Dave W]

Fundamentally the foreign permissions are VFR only.

I think it is a very great stretch to assume the permission extends to flight in IMC without an explicit statement to that effect from the country concerned, and I've not yet heard of that happening - and I'd definitely have remembered.

[GolfHotel]

Fundamentally the foreign permissions are VFR only.

I think it is a very great stretch to assume the permission extends to flight in IMC without an exicit statement to that effect from the country concerned, and I've not yet heard of that happening - and I'd definitely have remembered.

I admire your persistence to take a negative view, you are most consistent. However I am far from convinced that you are correct. Likewise as this is a new area I realise what has been before may well change. For all we know there is someone in some national aviation department with your positive outlook that may hold sway and thus hold Europe back from catching up with the USA yet again. In the mean time this is the intent that I believe is current.
"ECAC Recommendation INT.S/11-1 (dated 1980) reads as follows: that “Member States accept home-built aircraft with a certificate of airworthiness or a “permit to fly” issued by another Member State, to fly in their country without any restrictions other than those stated in the certificate of airworthiness or “permit to fly”.

Without any restrictions is pretty explicit.

I quite frankly can't be bothered to check the French permission. It may or may not specify VFR. Whatever it says at present may change in either way to take account of the changes to allow or prohibit IFR flight in permit aircraft.

We know from the American experience there is no reasonable justification for not allowing IFR flight in homebuild aircraft. Hopefully common sense will prevail. Although I will admit there is much evidence that common sense is not that common.

[Dave W]

I don't think it's a negative view; I think it's a logical interpretation.

However, whether I'm right or not, it's the conservative - that is, legally safe - assumption.

If one intended to fly in IMC in an LAA Permit aircraft outside the UK, it would be wise to confirm the actual legality rather than rely on one's own individual interpretation.

[Edward Bellamy]

All the UK general permissions/exemptions for non-ICAO compliant aircraft are restricted to VFR, so it seems likely that other states do the same.

The ECAC recommendation has no legal status on its own, it depends on the relevant law of the state in which one flies.

[G-JWTP]

As I understand it and have been told, on here so it must be right. Yes it is valid outside the UK. I suppose they could restrict you to VMC if they so choose.

I'm not sure about this, having a memory that (being an LAA dispensation from the CAA, not EASA) it is only a UK validity.

It is only a half-memory though. Do you have a reference from previous posts on here?

Sorry can't remember enough to find it.

But the PtF is issued by the LAA. So to fly in France you need permission, but there is a blanket permission. To go to Spain you have to get specific permission. Either country might decide to limit you to VFR, or allow IMC if approved by the LAA.

After all it is very common in the USA to fly IFR in experimental. But despite all that experience showing its quite safe some are still reluctant to accept it here. (thats not aimed at any particular person on here.)

I flew my Europa to Spain a few years ago and the permission stated that it was to be 'flown in accordance with the limitations of the permit to fly', my paraphrase.

So it would seem that if cleared for IFR on your permit then that would be OK.

G-JWTP.

I'm playing with the aircraft a bit later so I can find the exact words, in the aircraft docs.

[Marvin]

From the Belgium General exemption for Foreign Registered Permit to Fly Aircraft to fly in Belgium Airspace - See Dave W Post Here.


[a) The aircraft is flown under and in accordance with a valid Permit to Fly or equivalent document issued by the State of Registry.

b) The aircraft must not be flown for the purpose of public transport or commercial work.

c) The aircraft must be flown by day only and in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules.

[Flyingfemme]

Over the years we have ferried many flavours of permit or experimental aircraft - no overflight permissions have added restrictions to those specified in the home country operational limitations.

[Dave W]

My thinking is based on the contents of relevant LAA Technical Leaflets, especially the one where they canvassed other Nations for their rules.

Extracts from TL2.08 "Travelling abroad in a Permit to Fly aircraft", quoting individual countries acceptance of PtF:

AUSTRIA
only flights during daylight in accordance with visual flight rules are permitted
...
BELGIUM
[Specific application for Permit overflight required (DJMW - I don't think this has been updated since last year's change)]
...
CZECH REPUBLIC
– flights will be performed according to VFR/day (sporting parachutes VFR day/night) in
accordance with limitations or conditions specified in technical certificate and in compliance
with other conditions applicable for this operation in the CzechRepublic.
...
DENMARK
Operation of the aircraft in connection with
• ...
• flights in accordance with the IFR rules mentioned in BL 7-1, or
• ...is prohibited.
...
ESTONIA
[Specific application for Permit overflight required]
...
FRANCE
[No specific night/IFR exclusion included in quoted paperwork]
...
GERMANY
a)Flights must be conducted between SR and SS only, and only according to VFR
...

Well, you get the idea. It's not a given.

[VRB_20kt]

What's the typical avionics/instrument fit for a permit IFR? I can't imagine it's "cheap" no matter whether certified or not.

[Lefty]

About 25% of the equivalent (and sometimes inferior) certified equipment.

[riverrock]

instrument fit wise - no radio equipment at all is required to be LAA approved for IFR. You can be IFR non-radio / non-transponder if outside controlled airspace.
Instead you need to have appropriate equipment for the airspace or approach that you are undertaking, which is the same requirement as C of A aircraft.
So, for example, if you just have a radio, you can accept an SRA (assuming that ATC are happy for you to operate non-transponder).

[patowalker]

I came across this while looking for something else.

Some might be interested in this.

Article 3.7 make it clear that foreign registered homebuilts are restricted to Day VFR in France.