Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1591817
Some thoughts...

(1) This isn't the first aeroplane ever lost due to trimmer problems. A powerful trimmer can be very helpful in certain circumstances, but can be a problem.

(2) Seldom is an overweight aeroplane that much of a safety threat. It's being outside of CG limits that really makes a difference.

(3) There's a critical characteristic here called "manoeuvre stability", better understood by its other name of "stick force per g". Section S, the UK microlight code, requires that an aeroplane doesn't exceed its 4g limit load with less than 15lbf on the stick.

(4) A quick calculation suggests that putting the aeroplane 40kg overweight, and pulling on the stick until you pulled the wings off, would take about 21lb of sudden pull if the aeroplane was only just compliant with Section S. The trim input would have had to be consistent with that. [I don't know what the actual manoeuvre stability curve looks like for a Eurostar, so it could be a much bigger number - if it's a small number, somebody somewhere didn't do their job properly.]

(5) Most "group A" aeroplanes use a trim wheel rather than a lever. It's not hard to see how that is much harder to operate inadvertently. Levers are the norm on microlights - most likely because they are lighter to make and install, but you can see the value in a wheel as an alternative design.

(6) You can absolutely see why you want a reasonable amount of friction (and probably a lever that has no sharp corners to catch on anything) at the very least.

(7) I'm not about to criticise the designers of the Eurostar, but it does illustrate well the importance of a broad understanding of airworthiness when approving even a relatively cheap and simple aeroplane like this.

G
#1591820
Remosflyer wrote:I found the whole Microlight max certified weight legislation a bit of a shambles - my Remos G3/600 was limited to 450Kgs, this was then increased to 472.5Kg if I fitted a ballistic chute, although the complete BRS installation only weighs 9Kg, and exactly the same aircraft is certified to 600Kgs in the USA...

With an empty weight of 310Kgs and a 80 litre fuel tank being over the MTOW limit was normal if not solo, but it still climbed like a rocket in Samedan at a density altitiude of 7000ft...

This accident rather put me off buying a Eurostar:

https://www2.sust.admin.ch/pdfs/AV-berichte//2004_e.pdf

The Remos has 'Fly by Wire' pitch trim, with a coolie hat switch on the joystick and light wire to a slow moving servo in the tailplane just ahead of the elevator tab, probably lighter and safer than a lever and cables?

A ballistic chute would have saved the crew but the AAIB made no comment on this.


The rules are what they are. You are allowed 5% more on MTOW for having a BRS fitted. If the BRS is under that extra weight, you gain some payload. It's been widely exploited, but not caused a problem that I know of.

Electric trims can run away - a failed switch being the most obvious reason. So I would not regard an electric trimmer as automatically better or safer than a mechanical system - lighter probably.

G
#1591862
Joe Dell wrote:
Remosflyer wrote:
This accident rather put me off buying a Eurostar:

https://www2.sust.admin.ch/pdfs/AV-berichte//2004_e.pdf.


Just read it. Can't say it was any fault of the Eurostar. The pilot however... :shock:


I have to agree with @Joe Dell 100% on this. I don't like the phrase pilot error, but you can't blame the aeroplane for that one!

To save you reading it.

1. Canopy unlocked
2. trim in completely wrong position
3. BRS padlocked

I guess he was lucky he was over lake and not a town.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1591864
Genghis the Engineer wrote:(6) You can absolutely see why you want a reasonable amount of friction (and probably a lever that has no sharp corners to catch on anything) at the very least.



AAIB report:
. According to the maintenance manual the nut should be adjusted to ensure that there is a minimum 1.0 kgf force required at the lever’s end to move it.


Build manual:
Adjust the nut to give a friction of approximately 2 kg (measuresd at the top of the lever after 30 movements over the ful range. Secure the nut with split pin (8530).


There are no sharp corners to catch on anything. I am not the only Eurostar owner who doubts the design and location of the pitch trim mechanism contributed to this accident.
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By muffin
FLYER Club Member (reader)  FLYER Club Member (reader)
#1591888
There are no sharp corners to catch on anything. I am not the only Eurostar owner who doubts the design and location of the pitch trim mechanism contributed to this accident.


Agreed. The trim is certainly very powerful but the lever is on the pilots side and you would have to make a deliberate attempt to get to it from the passenger side. It is also quite hard to move and a simple accidental knock would not budge it. It has to be moved fore and aft quite deliberately.
#1591890
cockney Steve wrote:deleted


Steve, read the report

Commander’s Flying Experience: 316 hours (of which 316 were on type)
Last 90 days - 58 hours
Last 28 days - 22 hours


316 hours on type and 22 in the last month, isn't "squeaky new". Chances are you haven't spent 22 hours driving a car over the last 4 weeks!

I could however, quite easily see an inexperienced passenger leaning on that trim lever as he adjusted his seating position. You know, the "aching ****" problem after sitting for an hour, and before you know it, the trim is against one of the stops. Trim wheel would only move a quarter of a turn at most. Trim lever does look vulnerable to me. Note, comments based on the AAIB cockpit photo, not from sitting in a Eurostar.

Whatever the cause, sad outcome.
#1591894
I remember a flight in a rented C42 holding down the electric trim switch instead of the PTT on climbout (the switches are close together on the stick), took my brain a second or so to work out wtf was happening, I had not flown type for some months and , but learnt on them so should have know better.
#1591895
deleted


[part of sentence edited].

I do not know the pilot, but he had 316 hours TT, 316 hours on type, 58 hrs in the previous 90 days, 22 hrs in the previous 28 days (22 hrs is more than many pilots manage in one year). He had flown to Scotland and back the day before. Hardly a beginner and probably very familiar with his aircraft. His instructor said he was a thorough pilot, conservative in his flying.

This pilot took himself and a passenger for a flight on a nice day in an airworthy aircraft and didn't come home. Those of us who fly Eurostars, carrying friends and family as passengers, want to understand what might have happened.

Edited in view of a retracted posting
Last edited by flyingakite on Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Paul Kiddell, tomshep liked this
#1591909
muffin wrote:
There are no sharp corners to catch on anything. I am not the only Eurostar owner who doubts the design and location of the pitch trim mechanism contributed to this accident.


Agreed. The trim is certainly very powerful but the lever is on the pilots side and you would have to make a deliberate attempt to get to it from the passenger side. It is also quite hard to move and a simple accidental knock would not budge it. It has to be moved fore and aft quite deliberately.

:?: :scratch: The trim lever is between the two seats and easily accessible from either seat.