Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1592667
Paul_Sengupta wrote:Not necessarily, it could be owned by a private individual who wants to run an airfield, which may not leave any "profit" after taking a personal salary. It could also be owned by a group of individuals who want to base their aeroplanes there.

The problem is airfields being given planning permission for a change of use to housing or industrial, where property firms can buy them expecting a profit by closing them and building houses on them.


OK. I will just say Panshanger. Heirs see a chance to make money and sell the land? Wasn't that what happened?

I fully support James Chan's ideal of a network of airports open to GA. GA isn't just light aircraft so a network would be all GA, a bit like Biggin Hill.

Let's not loose sight of certain airports operated by someone who is a keen aviator and has invested in a number of airports but still wants to run them at a profit.
#1592672
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Bob Upanddown wrote:So you expect airfields to exist. Without a sound business case, the only way to run an airfield without making a "profit" is for that airfield to be "state" owned - local council, government. Can see the Tory party supporting that nor the left (whoever they are now).


Not necessarily, it could be owned by a private individual who wants to run an airfield, which may not leave any "profit" after taking a personal salary. It could also be owned by a group of individuals who want to base their aeroplanes there.

The problem is airfields being given planning permission for a change of use to housing or industrial, where property firms can buy them expecting a profit by closing them and building houses on them.

The profitability probably isn't helped by local authorities wanting to tax them heavily.


Spot on. My other half is a commercial property surveyor. When she values airfields, a significant proportion of the value is what surveyors term 'hope value'. Hope that planning permission to close the airfield and build houses can be obtained.

No-one, absolutely no-one, is buying airfields with a 'Plan A' of running a successful and profitable airfield. Houses are always the end game. Running an airfield is what they have to do in the meantime to limit losses.

The system is fundamentally broken and it's nothing to do with airfields. Changing lifestyles, a lack of any action designed to limit the population and the behaviour of the major housebuilders mean that building houses (or rather, having land that they can be built on) is the ultimate business to be in. In a properly functioning market, building houses on your land and trying to sell them would be as risky as any other business venture - and clearly it's not.
#1592680
defcribed wrote:My other half is a commercial property surveyor. When she values airfields, a significant proportion of the value is what surveyors term 'hope value'. Hope that planning permission to close the airfield and build houses can be obtained.
No-one, absolutely no-one, is buying airfields with a 'Plan A' of running a successful and profitable airfield.


So all the airports bought by RCA are going to be re-developed and aviation removed?

If the position is as you describe, then we are all doomed to have our aircraft as expensve ornaments in the garden.
#1592682
Bob Upanddown wrote:.. we are all doomed to have our aircraft as expensve ornaments in the garden.


"what's a garden, grandpa ?" :)
Nick, cockney steve liked this
#1592688
Let's not loose sight of certain airports operated by someone who is a keen aviator and has invested in a number of airports but still wants to run them at a profit.


Indeed, but what happens when he gets bored and wants to do something else, or falls ill, or he passes away? Will his successors always want to do the same?

Regulation is complex but the one I envision essentially achieves these goals:

1) Makes it much harder for landowners from easily closing, re-selling, or re-designating their airport into a site for other uses, such as housing. Due care and consideration with the local community, airport users, and fixed-based businesses needs to be taken into account.

2) Makes it much harder for landowners from raising fees in a disproportinate and unjustified manner. While there are arguments to priorise larger aircraft maximuse the use of the full length of a long runway, fair access must be given to smaller operators including private flights, when there is slot availability. This means any heavy jet airline businesses using the runway for 50% of the time doesn't kill off light aircraft access. But it should also be okay to have peak surcharges (like JFK) and the like to discourage light aircraft from banging circuits, hogging up the space that heavies would otherwise need.

3) Makes it much harder for airport operators to impose practices which are then disproportinately charged to aircraft operators who otherwise wouldn't ordinarily need it. Examples are mandatory handling and miscellaneous security fees. GA was once operating out of places like Stansted and Manchester. Airline businesses flourish and then the GA flight gets £200+ extra charges through no fault or cause of their own.

How this works in practice would be complex, including defining the legal framework which has political backing. It might look a bit like the telecoms or energy market:

1) You have core infrastruture (like BT Openreach) which is protected and price and service regulated.

This makes sure that companies like Openreach can make a profit, but can't screw everyone else over because the owners / investors are pulling the strings to maximise their own dividends to the detriment of the wider community.

The equivalent of this in aviation might be the land - the company owning the runways, the aprons and retail/office space. One can go a step further and even mandate profits to be re-invested into developing the infrastructure (i.e. maintaining those runways and aprons and building a fund to build more if need be).

2) You then have the stuff that sits on top of that core infrastructure, like Talktalk, or Sky, IsupplyEnergy, which is price unregulated (with the exception of anti-competitive behaviour).

The equivalent of this in aviation might be aero clubs, flight schools, engineering companies, exec jet handlers, airline passenger terminals, refuellers, etc.

All are given a level playing field as much as possible to allow their own businesses to flourish and offer services to customers without risk of the landowner screwing them over.

The landing fee then becomes a combination of the regulated runway fee + the optional unregulated facility fee that you are visiting / need services from.

The FBOs pay a price regulated rent to the landowner. The landowner cannot discriminate and suddenly say they don’t want the aero club there, for example.
#1592863
Bob Upanddown wrote:
defcribed wrote:My other half is a commercial property surveyor. When she values airfields, a significant proportion of the value is what surveyors term 'hope value'. Hope that planning permission to close the airfield and build houses can be obtained.
No-one, absolutely no-one, is buying airfields with a 'Plan A' of running a successful and profitable airfield.


So all the airports bought by RCA are going to be re-developed and aviation removed?

If the position is as you describe, then we are all doomed to have our aircraft as expensve ornaments in the garden.


I refer more to airfields than airports - if there's a difference.
#1592880
I always find it odd that literally every small regional town in France has an airfield, and not some crumbly old ex-WW2 place with a leaky hangar and boarded up windows..................

They are smart places with modern hangars and clubhouses, food places, long hard runways, taxiways and aircraft parking. It's paid for by the local town (but I'm not sure how) and is used largely by no greater number of people than your average flying club in the UK. But is seen as a local community amenity.

How come they can do this but we can't ? - where does the funding come from ?

Arc
#1592889
Arclite01 wrote:.. every small regional town in France has an airfield, .. is seen as a local community amenity.

How come they can do this but we can't ? - where does the funding come from ?

Arc


a reflection of the local autonomy built into the French political system, and associated mindset. The Maire of a tiny Commune has powers over both permissions and funds which in any huge British city would astonish and make jealous the elected Mayor or Metropolitan Authority Chairman. It is one reason why so many national political gigures in France, including Presidents, had long careers as such Maires. Of course, it used to be similar in UK (especially but not only Scotland) until fairly recently; and, as in France today, many prominent 'regional' politicians declined clear opportunities and invitations to join the 'national' fray until fairly late (by the standards of the day) in life; eg:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Chamberlain

There is similar autonomy today in US, Canada and Germany; with similar consequent political careers of distinction for 'subnational' politicians.

[a few prominent 'city' politicians in more recent times have made the transition to national then Cabinet politics in recent times, eg Hattersley and Blunkett; but their 'regional' careers were before the great centralising reforms of the '80s which removed many devolved privileges from municipal government]
#1592890
CloudHound wrote:Also called in official parlance 'an aerodrome' :thumleft:


.. and still is in Statute, I believe: 'any body of land or water set aside for taking-off or alighting of aircraft'. [so, obviously 'airfield' and 'landing' would be inadequate :) ]
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