[Dave W]

All covered in my #1590723 above.

Thank you; I'd missed that. I'm scratching my head as to the dimensions that lead to the special case and why only Biggin would be affcetdd and not any other hypothetical airfield with a long runway of up to 1849m. I'll probably need to draw a sketch later to understand it.

Not always the case ...

Oh, I'm sure. I didn't mean to suggest that it happened at every bizjet heavy airfield in the USA/elsewhere, but it does seem to be something much more common generally than we can manage on the UK, for some reason.

Probably because our smaller airports and airfields are privately owned, and the underlying ownership is often land speculation of one sort of other.

That may well be a factor, but I don't yet see the full logic hence wondering what the full explanation is for the UK?elsewhere difference.

As @matspart3 used to tell us (before he grew his hair long, bought a kaftan and went off to be an artist), the bizjets and other heavies cover the costs remaining after on-site business rentals have done the heavy financial lifting, and light GA fees and sales are a relatively minor revenue stream. But they are a revenue stream that wouldn't exist if they weren't there. I guess the question is, does that revenue stream cover the costs of making it available and the risks to the rest of the business (e.g. blacking a runway etc)? It seems to be possible to make the sums work elsewhere in the world; why not so much in the UK?

[Josh]

Planning and terrain/space are probably two big ones. Manhattan is built up, but TEB and EWR are on a large area of mainly industrial flat land the other side of the Hudson. The tri-state area is nowhere near as constrained as SE England. They have achieved fairly heroic air traffic congestion mainly by designing challenging and off the wall approaches and mandating transponder carriage throughout the area - whenever people ask why we can’t be more like the US they tend to conveniently forget that the airspace within a minimum of 30 miles of all major airports is a TMZ!

Biggin is on an undulating ellipse on a constrained hilltop with 03/21 on the major axis. The late lamented 11/29 was not exactly flat, as anyone who has missed touchdown at the 29 threshold then floated across the depression to meet the runway coming back up will tell you. There just isn’t the real estate for a parallel runway.

As someone who learned to fly at Biggin and had a share there, the whole business v much saddens me though. Were it not for the nimby movement restriction, I doubt this issue would be raising its head at all.

[tomshep]

Good job the NIMBYs weren't living there in 1940.

[Flyingfemme]

whenever people ask why we can’t be more like the US they tend to conveniently forget that the airspace within a minimum of 30 miles of all major airports is a TMZ

But there never seems to be any problem getting in, or through, the airspace.

[Dave W]

... whenever people ask why we can’t be more like the US they tend to conveniently forget that the airspace within a minimum of 30 miles of all major airports is a TMZ!

I think I raised the comparison with the US in this thread, and I'm not forgetting that at all.

In this instance it isn't directly relevant, since the issue was joint airfield usage (Large & small GA), not airspace per se.

[marioair]

If the cost of operating at a well equipped airport within the M25 in one of the most busy airspaces in Europe is buying a transponder then so be it!
my assertion for the APPG GA (http://www.generalaviationappg.uk/) would be that they need to have a formal position on GA in south london - redhill at risk, fairoaks at risk, rochester no hard runway, and now biggin making it harder.

[chevvron]

Thank you; I'd missed that. I'm scratching my head as to the dimensions that lead to the special case and why only Biggin would be affcetdd and not any other hypothetical airfield with a long runway of up to 1849m. I'll probably need to draw a sketch later to understand it.

The ATZ is centred on the midpoint of 03/21. The eastern end of the paved surface of ex runway 11/29 was found to be less than 1.5nm from the boundary of this ATZ, so I'm assuming Biggin made a 'case' for a larger ATZ and the CAA came up with this 'special case' and gave them a 2.5nm radius ATZ. Now that runway 11/29 has been withdrawn from use as a runway, Biggin's arguement no longer applies hence they only 'qualify' for a 2nm radius ATZ.
I did hear a rumour (don't know how true it is) that the runway was closed as a 'bribe' to get a bizjet operator to move in to premises just south of the old 11 threshold, but not knowing Biggin all that well, I don't know if this is true.
Having said all that, it's my personal opinion that all civil and military licensed airfields having CAA/MAA approved iap's should have a 5nm radius ATZ irrespective of runway length, thereby eliminating the silly 'MATZ' system which only applies to military aircraft. It would also mean there is less of a 'need' for Class D around these airfields because, although the 5nm radius ATZ would be Class G airspace, as we all know, instructions from ATC to a pilot in an ATZ are mandatory.

[chevvron]

If the cost of operating at a well equipped airport within the M25 in one of the most busy airspaces in Europe is buying a transponder then so be it!
my assertion for the APPG GA (http://www.generalaviationappg.uk/) would be that they need to have a formal position on GA in south london - redhill at risk, fairoaks at risk, rochester no hard runway, and now biggin making it harder.

Don't forget Dunsfold, 1880m hard and approx 800m grass unlicensed; it too is under threat although I understand the planning approval to build housing has been 'called in' by the S of S.

[Bathman]

Sorry I have no local knowledge of that part of GA but what airfields nearby are availabe and affordable for a Biggin based flying school to go and do circuit detail at?

[marioair]

Calais

[chevvron]

Sorry I have no local knowledge of that part of GA but what airfields nearby are availabe and affordable for a Biggin based flying school to go and do circuit detail at?

You could do worse than try Kenley. I understand from a forum elsewhere that the council are re-building the fences around the airfield to keep out errant dog walkers.
Don't know who you would contact to get permission but I believe the airfield itself is still MOD Property.

[marioair]

No powered ac allowed I believe.

[Josh]

Sorry I have no local knowledge of that part of GA but what airfields nearby are availabe and affordable for a Biggin based flying school to go and do circuit detail at?

Headcorn I think do an “all you can eat” circuit fee though obviously potential issues in the winter. That was where we also went for introduction to grass and A/G comms when I did my PPL.

[TractorBoy]

Sorry I have no local knowledge of that part of GA but what airfields nearby are availabe and affordable for a Biggin based flying school to go and do circuit detail at?

Headcorn I think do an “all you can eat” circuit fee though obviously potential issues in the winter. That was where we also went for introduction to grass and A/G comms when I did my PPL.

Would have thought Rochester was a better bet than Headcorn given the parachuting that goes on there....

[chevvron]

Would have thought Rochester was a better bet than Headcorn given the parachuting that goes on there....

There used to be a rather 'ascerbic' radio operator at Headcorn; (once threatened to throw a CAA Inspector in the ditch) is he still there?