[GrahamB]

... and spear it into the ground, or stall it, or exceed VA or VNE.

No - the proper and safe way to deal with inadvertent IMC, is to start a rigorous scan on the real instruments and ensure your aircraft is under control before deciding what to do next - which is likely to be be full power and climb to a safe altitude/VMC unless you are 100% sure that you have safe terrain clearance to carry out your 180 turn or gentle descent.

A tablet is a navigation tool, not a control instrument.

[Andrew Sinclair]

100% GrahamB

[mick w]

I do realise there are Instruments in the Panel , but if they ever stop working , this might save your Skin , if you remember it . . There was one of these in my last Post

[GolfHotel]

I have huge respect for Michael P , but in ' my experience ' , if SD or similar are used in the correct mode , ie Track Up , & you find yourself in need of a Wing Leveller , there is no need for any twiddling , just decide from the Map where you would like to go , point the Projection Line to said feature , then all you have to do is keep it vertical , & your Wings will remain level until you get there . How can it be more simple ?.

None believers , don't knock it till you've tried it !!.

Sorry Mick but the first thing must be to fly the plane. And that means scan the instruments in your panel. Level the wings and then climb to a safe height. Then, and only then, start navigating. If you are in IMC and all you have is a tablet then use it. But a proper IFR GPS is what you need.

The opening screen on SD says its for VFR. That is there for a reason. If all you have is a tablet in IMC you are asking for trouble.

I have heard people saying they rely on tablets in IMC. Well I have twice had a tablet fail and you won't find me in IMC with that as my only navigation. Sure yesterday I was flying with SD and using it to navigate when the ground was not visible. I got up through the cloud with autopilot on and me scanning the screen in front of me. Even when I was navigating with SD I had a proper WAAS IFR GPS driving the moving map in the panel and I was checking it.

At the end of one flight yesterday I did an RNAV approach. It is so easy and accurate. Yes I can do a hand flown ILS or what ever. But if only we can move into the GPS age we can have so many more approaches. As it happens the approach I did was to Gloucester 09 a fine example where there is no ILS, or even radar at present. But it was no problem what so ever, because I had a proper IFR GPS and was trained to use it. I dropped out of cloud on the center line and at the right height.

[A le Ron]

MP's point is very well made. Inadvertent IMC can kill. First fly the aeroplane. Yes, GPS etc reduces cockpit workload hugely, when and only when you have the additional capacity to use it. (And then, of course, it's brilliant).

[madmaveric]

On the foggles vs real IMC topic and the leans.

I did most of my PPL under foggles. Later, after I had completed the instrument part of training, I ended up on a check ride with an IR instructor and I asked if we could do a bit of real IMC flying as part of the check ride (just for fun as I'd never been in cloud before).

After a while I started getting the leans and told the instructor, who asked if I wanted to give control back.
I asked him to leave me to it as long as everything was safe so I could experience the full effect, and boy did I.
I'm surprised I didn't push the window out with my shoulder as my body was forcing itself side wards very hard (the opposite direction to what the instruments/stick required). It was quite unpleasant and took a lot of concentration on the instruments just to keep level. This did pass eventually but it was an eye opener as to how strong the feelings can be if they happen and how much concentration is needed to combat them.
I'm glad I didn't experience this for the first time while alone with radios, navigation and other things to deal with. During the 'lean' period it was all I could do to stay level, before and after it was relatively easy.

The real lesson here for me was experiencing the leans not the instrument flying.

Previously I had only experienced the 'training leans' during initial foggle training. This is where the instructor will cover the instruments and then deliberately manoeuvre the aircraft to get your inner ear working, then ask what it is doing. You feel like you are turning right but are actually level or turning left.
This was nothing close to strength of the effect I got above but it did show how you can get disorientated so was still useful.

If you are a VFR pilot who hasn't experienced IMC leans it is really an eye opener, I'd recommend trying to get a real IMC leans experience if you can (with a good instructor obviously) , It also makes for a much more interesting checkride than the usual ones
While not the most pleasant of experiences, coming through it still in control is a definite boost to ones confidence (as well as a boost to avoiding IMC).

[MichaelP]

The reason I wrote about the GPS is that nearly everyone has one and it is the first place they go to get out of trouble.
Not a criticism of the technology,
I have seen and experienced frustrating finger trouble using this device. It can be a serious distraction from flying the aeroplane.
Make sure all is well with the aeroplane, level at a safe altitude, and then use the navigational means at your disposal.

Some people have several GPSs and tablets in their cockpits even at the expense of a good view of the blind flying instruments.
My point is to do with priorities in an emergency situation.

[Andrew Sinclair]

I did most of my PPL under foggles.

JAAMOI why did you do your PPL training under foggles?

[AFSAG]

Remember too the more you have your head down and moving around, be it struggling with a panel mount gps or trying to find the tablet settings, reaching behind you to get a no from your bag, or whatever, the more that fluid is sloshing around in your semicircular canals and getting accelerated in unusual ways

This is much more likely to cause the leans and cause an unusual attitude

So best if pilot aviates and flies the plane by scanning with eyes and relatively little sudden head movement with most important thing being get to MSA if below, whilst copilot sorts the navigation solution

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

A few years ago I found a mention of a ‘cure’ for the leans in a comment on a website somewhere. It consisted of giving your head a brisk shake from side to side (basically sloshes the fluid in the semi-circular canals).

Caught in a VFR in to IMC situation at low level and in close proximity of a large obstruction, the leans was the last thing I needed. Remembering the advice from the article, I gave it a try and the leans cleared up immediately.

If you ever get caught in a difficult situation where the leans are adding to your problems, give it a try. Hopefully it will work as quickly for you as it did for me.

[madmaveric]

I did most of my PPL under foggles.

JAAMOI why did you do your PPL training under foggles?

Oops, that should have read '... PPL instrument lessons under ... '

[GolfHotel]

The reason I wrote about the GPS is that nearly everyone has one and it is the first place they go to get out of trouble.
Not a criticism of the technology,
I have seen and experienced frustrating finger trouble using this device. It can be a serious distraction from flying the aeroplane.
Make sure all is well with the aeroplane, level at a safe altitude, and then use the navigational means at your disposal.

Some people have several GPSs and tablets in their cockpits even at the expense of a good view of the blind flying instruments.
My point is to do with priorities in an emergency situation.

I’m not at all convinced that many people will choose to use gps first. Although we have seen some will. It’s is a shame that you twice choose to have a go on the anti gps band wagon in your original post. Your point would have been better made if you had stuck to how to maintain control.

If you had just stuck to the aviate, navigate, comunicate line I would have had no problem with the principle of your post.

That was quite some sea fog to be 3000 ft deep!

Maybe your original post could have benefited from a bit of advice about how you could have avoided getting in such a dangerous situation in the first place. The need to demonstrate your superior skills could have been avoided by a bit of superior decision making before hand.

Do you really think a pilot without the skills to fly in IMC who finds them self in the clag should be worrying about the way they turn? I wonder if the difference in turning one way or the other is really discernible by such a pilot in such a situation in a 152 or anything newer.

My advice would be don’t be so daft as to get yourself in such a situation in the first place. To be in IMC without the pilot flying the aircraft having the skills to fly in IMC is not a good idea. First get the skills. If you should display such foolishness then the first thing to do is fly the plane. Level the wings, and climb to a safe height. Then, and only then, start to navigate. Maybe consider a 180 degree turn at this point. A GPS may well be a life saver now as it will make navigation so much easier. Don’t forget to keep flying the plane while navigating. This is not the time to be learning to use the GPS. Use some of your superior knowledge to realise that is something else that you can do beforehand. Then after you have got the plane under control and know where you are and where you are going it’s time to get on the radio. At this point you can usefully let them know you have been a bit silly and are in IMC without the proper skills. Should you not have a working GPS on board you might be well advised to ask for vectors. Trying to do much in the way of demonstrating your superior map reading and or radio navigation skills may take up too much of your time. You have to retain sufficient capacity to maintain control of the plane. ATC will generally do all they can to help if you are in trouble don’t be embarrassed to admit you have been silly.

If you make it back to terra firma in one piece and still alive by all means come onto a forum and tell your tale. Can I recommend that the first thing you advise people is to avoid being so daft. If you are going to push the limits of VFR then get some training so the pilot flying knows what to do.

[GolfHotel]

I did most of my PPL under foggles.

JAAMOI why did you do your PPL training under foggles?

Oops, that should have read '... PPL instrument lessons under ... '

Don’t panic MM it was pretty obvious what you meant. most people will have worked it out in a nano second.

[Maxthelion]

GH, MP was simply adding meat to the bones of the aviate, navigate, communicate order of priorities. He's not using this as a platform to bash GPS, he's simply mentioning it as that is the most likely device that people may turn to when prematurely blundering their way along that list.

[GolfHotel]

GH, MP was simply adding meat to the bones of the aviate, navigate, communicate order of priorities. He's not using this as a platform to bash GPS, he's simply mentioning it as that is the most likely device that people may turn to when prematurely blundering their way along that list.

Twice in the original post he did bash GPS, unreasonably IMHO.