[Lefty]

Whilst I agree that in principal that there should only be one captain, I do believe that where safety of the aircraft of the aircraft is at risk, then it may become necessary for the instructor / passenger to take action to prevent an accident.
Examples include;
1) Spotting another a/c on a collision course about 1 mile ahead - I pointed to it and shouted to the P1 to do an immediate right turn. He paused, looked but didn’t see it and said where? At which point I applied full right aileron.

2) instructing a PPL converting onto a new type but on climbout the student pitches the nose too high and allows the speed to decay.
Three times I said “watch your airspeed - you need at least 70kts - lower the nose” but he didn’t react. As the airspeed was now critically low, I nudged the Control column forward a smidge to give him the hint.

3) Converting another PPL onto a new type and he would do a good approach, but then seemed to freeze in the final stages of the approach. At about 100’ I said “get ready to flare” no response. At 50’ I said are you ready to flare”? At 20’ and still very nose down, I said “start you flare now - flare now - flare now” !
He did nothing, so I reached up and pulled back on the yoke. I am 100% certain that if I hadn’t done so, he would have flown us straight into the ground.

It doesn’t happen very often, but I find it hard to believe that I am the only instructor that has had students fail to act quickly enough to resolve a potentially dangerous situation - and has had to touch the controls to avoid an accident?

[SteveC]

We are not talking aboiut teaching Lefty. Totally different direction of discussion.

[Lefty]

My example #1 wasn’t instructional, just a passenger flight.

[Genghis the Engineer]

2) instructing a PPL converting onto a new type but on climbout the student pitches the nose too high and allows the speed to decay.
Three times I said “watch your airspeed - you need at least 70kts - lower the nose” but he didn’t react. As the airspeed was now critically low, I nudged the Control column forward a smidge to give him the hint.

3) Converting another PPL onto a new type and he would do a good approach, but then seemed to freeze in the final stages of the approach. At about 100’ I said “get ready to flare” no response. At 50’ I said are you ready to flare”? At 20’ and still very nose down, I said “start you flare now - flare now - flare now” !
He did nothing, so I reached up and pulled back on the yoke. I am 100% certain that if I hadn’t done so, he would have flown us straight into the ground.

It doesn’t happen very often, but I find it hard to believe that I am the only instructor that has had students fail to act quickly enough to resolve a potentially dangerous situation - and has had to touch the controls to avoid an accident?

I'm sure that every instructor has - I've had multiple such instances.

BUT, everything I understand about best practice in instructing is that I would not have acted in the way you described here. If it reaches a point where the student's handling is about to unrecoverably endanger the aeroplane, then surely you give a very clear "I have control", take full control of the aeroplane, and apart from ensuring safety, only hand back the aircraft when the student can safely do so.

When I trained as an instructor I was firmly told that "split control" was normally to be avoided as far as possible, and my experience has been that - except when teaching only one aspect of controlling an aeroplane and it's deliberate, this is sound advice.

G

[MichaelP]

The Tiger Moth started an early climbing turn in the circuit, and it confused both of us. ‘Why’s he turning this early?’

With reference to the previous comment about responsibility.
Yes, it was unfortunate that TC told me that I could be held responsible for an accident whenever I was in the right seat of an aeroplane I’m rated to fly.

A week later I arrived in Montreal with three other people and we were picked up by a French French instructor in a Cessna 210. So I had a ladder brought out, and I checked the tanks. I also did a quick weight and balance confirmation.

Then one of my former students did some of the legs flying a Cessna 152 back to Vancouver, and built her PIC cross country time. TC questioned this as I was on board as well.
But there’s always going to be questions on this one.

On a 300 NM cross country when I was not a rated instructor we were approaching Nantes.
There was deliberate non involvement by me until I asked the pilot where we were... He made the call, cleared to join via point Whiskey or where-ever, you can get the drift.
I unplugged his headset, called Nantes and explained we would actually join via Echo or even November, as I said this was a navigational exercise. We joined via November after passing the east side of the zone.
No zone infringements on my watch! The pilot doing the 300 NM cross country was supposed to be learning from his experience.
Next day, 6th June 1984... We flew past the exclusion zone, were looked at by a Gazelle helicopter, but were on our way to Bernay.

We passed that mast in Devon... Perfect view from the T67A, also on a 300 NM cross country. We were on track, on time, nothing wrong... But I was saying nothing.
The pilot looked around and saw the mast in her eight o’clock several miles behind, she’d missed seeing it, and I had not CRM would require me to tell her now, but then I considered PIC to be different.
She looked at me and said: “You didn’t tell me!”, and burst into tears... Oops.
“Let’s go into Compton Abbas and have a cup of tea” I said.
FREDA became FFREDA, Face, carry out makeup restoration, prepare for arrival, Fuel, Radio, Engine, Direction, Altimeter...
She was gorgeous, and probably still is, and had/has a great career as a commercial pilot, and I know for a fact that there are some on here who have flown with her, she is a very good pilot.

So the topic is multi faceted, and requires consideration of many more options than it would suggest.

I’ve gone both ways, from saying nothing to saying something, and from hands off, to sometimes hands on, and sometimes without saying I have control!

There is no hard and fast rule you can apply to it.

[Joe Dell]

I've grabbed the controls and taken corrective, self-preserving action. Rather than "I have control", it tends to be along the lines of "What the **** are you playing at? you dumb ****. Trying to f******** kill us both? Get a bloody grip!!!. Everyone else seems so nice about things. I feel bad now.

[Miscellaneous]

Rather than "I have control", it tends to be along the lines of "What the **** are you playing at? you dumb ****. Trying to f******** kill us both? Get a bloody grip!!!. Everyone else seems so nice about things. I feel bad now.

Well that's just blown how I imagined you, Joe Dell.

[Paultheparaglider]

I've grabbed the controls and taken corrective, self-preserving action. Rather than "I have control", it tends to be along the lines of "What the **** are you playing at? you dumb ****. Trying to f******** kill us both? Get a bloody grip!!!. Everyone else seems so nice about things. I feel bad now.

You see the trouble here. When you tell them to get a bloody grip they will be confused if you have just grabbed the controls yourself. Do you want them to let go and hand over control or don't you?

[Flyin'Dutch']

I've grabbed the controls and taken corrective, self-preserving action. Rather than "I have control", it tends to be along the lines of "What the **** are you playing at? you dumb ****. Trying to f******** kill us both? Get a bloody grip!!!. Everyone else seems so nice about things. I feel bad now.

Joe, don't feel bad.

Whilst I would try and say or do something before expletives would be required I totally understand that people would do something when they think that their demise is imminent.

Too many people on this thread have tried to portray themselves to be holier than thou, although in their posts they have admitted to doing that what was required to save their skin or that of the aeroplane.

You would be welcome to come flying with me.

[flybymike]

Don’t do it Joe, he’ll f****** kill you!

[flyingeeza]

"What the **** are you playing at? you dumb ****. Trying to f******** kill us both? Get a bloody grip!!!.

I mumble similar stuff to myself most flights!

[tomshep]

+1

[Gertie]

"What the **** are you playing at? you dumb ****. Trying to f******** kill us both? Get a bloody grip!!!.

I mumble similar stuff to myself most flights!

That's part of my safety briefing to passengers.

"If I talk to myself, this is perfectly normal, many pilots do it, it's just a hangover from giving a running commentary to the instructor.

"If I swear at myself, this is perfectly normal, many pilots do it, it's probably nothing to worry about, it's probably just that I've done something slightly less neatly than I think I should be capable of."

[Paul_Sengupta]

Joe Dell - were you my instructor?

For non pilot passengers, I like to throw in the occasional worried look and "Oh b*gg*r."

They look at me all concerned...then I sigh and say something like, "I forgot to set Blue Planet to record" or such like.

[defcribed]

It never came down to taking over control without being asked (although a couple of times I was asked to and did) but I used to fly with someone who learned at about the same time as me - indeed we met at the club as student PPLs.

For the most part this person's flying was pretty good, but what they seemed to lack (in my admittedly inexpert eyes) was the confidence and assertiveness necessary to fulfill the role of commander effectively. If I or someone else with a license was sitting in the right seat as passenger then this person would defer as much as possible to me (or someone else). Navigation and RT would become my responsibility, and any uncertainty in the air would culminate in the question "what should we do?" being posed to me.

I became increasingly uncomfortable with this situation, but to my shame I never raised it directly with them as an issue. I just flew less and less with them and eventually stopped altogether. I wouldn't go so far as to say they were unsafe or shouldn't have a license, but if it were proposed that they take my mother for a flight then I would probably advise my mother against it.

The final straw was on a club flyout where for a particular leg (which this person was flying as P1 and paying for) I was asked by a club instructor to sit in the right seat of that aircraft so as to ensure there was some sort of instrument qualification in each aeroplane: the weather was not fantastic with probably a 50:50 chance of having to go IMC at some stage. I went along with this so as not to make a fuss, but afterwards raised it with the instructor because in retrospect I wasn't happy with it. I got the official line about not going in an aeroplane with someone who's skills/abilities/qualifications I'm not happy with, but I'm fairly sure if I'd raised it before the flight I'd have got the "don't be difficult" line.

I think most of us would act instinctively to prevent injury/risk to life if it became necessary. To preserve an aircraft from damage..... well.... we've probably all got slightly different tolerances. The best way forward, for me at least, is to accept this and deal with it if it ever comes up. Early spoken interventions (and a culture that encourages them) probably go a long way to preventing unannounced/unexpected taking of control. A discussion about roles and responsibilities before the flight is always welcome, but anyone sticking down non-negotiable hard stops about when they might assume control is unlikely to fly next to me as a passenger when I'm PIC. Some things are probably better thought and not said.