Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1580369
I was having a think about what vehicle driving instructors do.

They’d probably only suggest or starkly warn on some things rather than to be put in a situation to take to the controls.

There are often warning signs you see coming up to the event.

Plus they may not have the appropriate insurance cover either.

Perhaps the same applies for aircraft.
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By David Wood
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1580399
PeteSpencer wrote:Question for OP:

So, what did you do? :wink: :wink:


Very interesting discussion, illustrating that the issues are not quite as black and white as we all might wish. Thank you all.

In the scenarios painted I would (and in fact did) do almost exactly what @Genghis the Engineer suggested in post #2, although I think I did add "I have control". To me it was as much a matter of instinct and self-preservation as it was anything else. Also, as @Balliol said, when you've instructed for quite a long time it's almost impossible not to be constantly monitoring what the other guy's doing, no matter who they are. One of the critical FI skills is that of knowing just how far to let a student screw up, before acting to prevent a screw-up. It's not easy, and it's not easy to drop the habit once formed.

I think that the more challenging issue is one of legal liability. What if, for example, Pilot A had taken control (as I did) but been unable to prevent a damaging landing, albeit perhaps a less damaging one than if he hadn't taken control. Who is then in the dock when somebody claims damages?

Conversely, if Pilot A had simply sat there, arms folded, whilst the aeroplane scattered itself along the runway, would the owners have had some claim against him for not taking reasonable steps to prevent their loss? I suspect that they would have struggled to make that stick in court, for the reasons that some of you have stated, but you never know.

Anyway, I'm not saying that what I did was right. But I suspect I'd do it again if I felt it necessary.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT a lawyer (although I do seem to spend my life beset by lawyers!) so these opinions are entirely my own.
Last edited by David Wood on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By PeterMa
#1580400
I have been dealing with a very very similar real life situation which led to considerable damage to UC & wheels etc ... :(

The end result was a very bad feeling between pilots and an almost impossible situation to work out who was going to or should pay for the damage as there was lots of ' it wasn't down to me' & ' it wouldn't have happened if you'd left things alone ' from both pilots.

Guess it becomes clear that things really do need to be clear in these sort of situations. I've had an offer from a very experienced pilot to fly a sector if I felt in any way unhappy (due to a number of factors) . This was on the ground before start and I declined but the offer was there and agreement made that if at any point I wanted to hand over or the other pilot felt he 'needed' to take over the usual - you have / I have control would be said and off we'd go - both knowing what was going on.
#1580403
I have witnessed a similar scenario (from a control point of view).

There was PPL (P_A) flying and instructor (I_A) in the passenger seat and myself and another instructor (I_B) in the back seat. Both myself and P_A had recently got our licences being trained by I_B.

The reason for the flight was so that I_B could give myself a club checkout as I hadn't flown that aircraft for over a year, P_A had used it regularly.
I_A also got asked if he would like to come along for the ride (we were going for a coffee and it wasn't busy that day at the club).
The only instruction time would be myself and I_B on the flight out.

I_A was a younger instructor and I don't know how long he had been instructing (probably only for couple of years at most I expect) but I don't think either P_A or myself had flown with them before.

After doing my checkout and a coffee at another field we switched over for the return flight.

On arriving back we seemed to bounce quite high on landing (I can't remember if we actually touched down or just flared now as this was a few years ago), I thought it was a bit higher than just a normal bounce but not having much time in the aircraft I wasn't sure at the time.

Afterwords I was told by P_A that during the landing, just as they pulled back to flair, I_A also grabbed the column and pulled back as he thought that P_A was not going to flair at all, this caused far too much flair and a high bounce at low speed.

I got the story later (nothing was said in the cockpit at the time) so I don't know if any words were had after the flight.

I only mentioned it as a real word example of the kind of scenario where taking control unexpectedly could be dangerous.
---
In a similar vein I have also noticed a couple of times (one instructor and two PPL's) where the use of the phase 'you/I have control' wasn't used properly.
Each time this occurred was when the P1 took back control while I was flying after a correct handover, the other pilot making a small change of direction but never stating if they were taking back control or not. Just saying 'let's head that way' or something like that and turning the aircraft.

This left me wondering who was in control after the manoeuvre. I corrected this at the time (by saying 'you have control' as soon as I wasn't sure)

I have since expanded my explanation to passengers now to the following adding the underlying bits when I discuss this before flight.
If I want you to take control I will say 'you have control', I will continue flying until you have said back 'I have control'.
If I need to take back control I will say 'I have control' and MAY take control immediately if needed before waiting for your 'you have control' response. But I still expect to hear it so I know you are off the controls and will say it again if you don't respond.

Given my low number of hours flying and the frequency of these events (3 times in my first 100 hours) it is something I'm now a lot more aware of.
By Brad2523
#1580407
I recently did a familiarisation on a new aircraft in our group with a more experienced fellow group member.

General handling all ok, but in the circuit she was a little quicker than I was used to and the speed kept the aircraft running away from me. After a few go arounds I was able to catch up and on our final landing everything seemed to be going well.

I guess the last landing must have looked as though it was going to be heavy as when I flared I could feel yoke move an inch or so further back... we greased it on.

The conversation went;

Him: "Lovely smooth landing mate"

Me: "Yes, but only because you helped!"

Him: *knowing look*

Was I upset that he put a last minute bit of input on the controls? No.

It saved us from a bit of a bump, and also demonstrated exactly how much extra movement was needed to achieve a nice smooth landing. Win win - hadn't even given it any more thought until this thread came up!

(And naturally, every landing since has been a greaser!!!! :wink: :lol: )
#1580449
pplmeir wrote:...In this case Pilot B wasnt able to cope with a bounce in a cross wind so is unlikely to be a suitable first choice in this case. Pilot A would have had the opportunity to check the forecast and look into the risks ahead of time.

Pilot A wouldnt have picked someone that he wasnt aware of his abilities to help with his mission and accordingly put that person in this situation, it was entirely avoidable.


David Wood wrote:There is a stiff cross wind but Pilot A considers that handling it lies well within Pilot B’s capabilities.
#1580494
My only thoughts on the Original Post are.

a) I’d not be sitting in the passenger seat in the first place if I didn’t trust the PIC. I’d probably be hanging on while we crashed in this instance, due to D

b) deleted.

c) when I fly with another pilot and I say “anything you’re not happy about, point it out” I mean it. (and they have! “Is that carb heat staying on?”) Conversely I’d be happy to say, “are we really taking off with full flap?”

d) Another pilot once did something I instinctively wasn’t happy with, it was perfectly safe I think (in retrospect) just not how I usually fly. Without thinking I pushed the nose down, which startled him to say the least. I genuinely thought we were about to stall and spin in. We had a quick frank chat and all was fine. I was in the wrong, I shouldn’t have said “you have control” if I didn’t believe he should have control.
By Cns416
#1580498
I've been in a slightly different scenario but equally interesting one.
There was a local event on resulting in airspace notam restriction covering the gliding field in certain directions only: other areas were OK.
I was a visitor, solo pilot, checked off to fly solo in club aircraft at this club which I regularly visited. I flew during the day both dual to check the notammed areas parts and later solo in a club a/c.
Later I was offered a flight in a dual glider I had not flown before with a club instructor that I did not know on the basis of a non instructional mutual flight.
We took off and shared the flying with the instructor doing most of it.

The instructor takes the a/c into the restricted area.
I express my concern and belief that we are in the area we should not be in.
Instructor says that I am mistaken.
I let them get on with it on the basis that they are i/c and an instructor.

After landing an almighty row develops with the duty instructor of the day blaming me for the fact the aircraft was in the restricted airspace.
This was clearly an attempt to off load responsibility onto a visitor.
I point out (forcibly) that I was not in command of the a/c, and that I told the instructor that we were in a restricted area that we should have been in and I was ignored - so not my problem.
So the question is as a solo non-instructor rated pilot as a visitor to a club flying in a club 2 seater aircraft with a qualified instructor who clearly did not read/care about the briefing board.....should I have done anymore than I did to express conern at the conduct of the soaring flight (and we were in the nofly zone for a while - not just 5 minutes!)
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By Ben
#1580500
Many years ago I was in a similar situation, the difference was that we both hired from the same club, I am not an instructor and that the noise wheel was not about to be smashed. P1 was just landing short into the runway's grass over run. I did not think just grabbed the control and led the aircraft to the runway. Legalities? Everything can be discussed later. In any case I have explained the other pilot why I did what I did.

Edited to add that as far as I know in the USA the senior pilot is always responsible even if he/she is a passenger.
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1580543
I learned in Canada from that Seneca accident that as an instructor I can never be a passenger in the right seat of an aeroplane I am rated to fly, even though, in this instance, the PIC had much more experience than I did in multi engine aeroplanes.

What is valuable to all of us who fly together as pilots is to do a little self study of CRM.
On every flight we should agree to share tasks.
On every flight we should be willing to comment.
On every flight we should do what it takes to survive, if this is necessary.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1580737
I'd like to explore this issue of the North Americans handing RESPONSIBILITY to the most qualified or experienced pilot on board for flight safety issues on board. I don't believe that is the case here, save possibly morally.

If you are to hand somebody responsibility, then surely they must also have AUTHORITY. And all concerned should have training in the exercise of that authority.

I'm a CPL with an instructor rating. Fine, I am competent and qualified to fly many aeroplanes I may find myself a passenger in, and competent to judge when it is appropriate to do that.

But unless I'm given a clear legal framework, and the captain of the aircraft is given training in when to acknowledge and accept that authority over them - it is theoretical at best, and very dangerous at worse. Plus, I suspect that most PPLs will never want me a passenger in their aeroplane given that I have that authority.

Frankly, I don't want it. It should be absolutely and always clear who is Captain of an aeroplane - and it shouldn't be a passenger who happens to have a particular bit of paper in their back pocket (and hasn't prepared for the flight, familiarised themselves with the specific aircraft and met, may have had a beer at lunchtime...)

At best, the Captain should be required to seek advice where it's available. But he or she should still be the Captain.

G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer on Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1580740
MichaelP wrote:I learned in Canada from that Seneca accident that as an instructor I can never be a passenger in the right seat of an aeroplane I am rated to fly,


Even if the left seat pilot is also an instructor?
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1580759
I don't believe that officially the US situation is any different to that in the UK, but certain court rulings have muddied the waters towards blaming the most qualified person on board. I can't find the articles on it at the moment and things may have changed since.

Regarding the US, not the same situation as in this thread, but similar:

https://www.floridabar.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Avia-0808.pdf

Another situation that raises questions is where the certified flight instructor does not hold a current medical certificate. In Administrator v. Ridpath the FAA sought the revocation of Ridpath’s pilot and flight instructor certificates for careless and reckless operations and for operating an aircraft while intoxicated. The facts of the case indicate that Ridpath was instructing a rated pilot while the pilot was practicing an approach under simulated instrument conditions. Ridpath did not hold a medical certificate.

During the practice approach, the aircraft crashed approximately 75 feet short of the intended runway. Just before the crash, Ridpath pulled back on the yoke of the aircraft in an attempt to either avert a crash or minimize its impact. The NTSB held that the action taken by Ridpath to avoid the accident demonstrated an “involvement in the management of the aircraft that [was] sufficient to support the [careless or reckless]
allegation." Interestingly, a separate concurrence by one Board member indicates that “[a]lthough I agree with the result in this case, I have a serious problem to the extent that the analysis suggests that respondent has violated the FARs because he manipulated the
controls in an emergency attempt to reduce the severity of the accident.”


There's a lot of other relevant stuff in that article. First page, then continues on page 10.
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