Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1592836
if those activities have an environmental impact.


Yes. My own guesses from the point of view from people on the ground:

- Some may like the addition of CAS because it's perceived to reduce the risk of aircraft colliding and spraying debris and dead bodies over their home.

- Some may not like the addition of CAS because it's perceived to bring an increase in noise and fuel emissions in more defined areas.

If residents are informed that:

1) Pinch points coupled with over-complexity of airspace causes infringements that can actually increase the risk of collision, and

2) The addition of this complex CAS is caused by archaic designs from the 1970s sitting above it, which increases noise and fuel emissions at lower levels unnecessarily to their homes.

... Then perhaps this complex airspace could be pushed back for another rethink.
#1592928
ls8pilot wrote:
Very useful thanks, looks like Oxford average around 3500 movements/month in the summer period, so roughly 100-120 / day on average of which just under half are training.

No stats for Brize Norton unfortunately. As far as I can see from published data they are around 20-30 flights/day mid week and very few flights at the weekend.

Last time Brize 'made a case' for CAS was over 20 years ago and I think they quoted something like 1200 IFR per month where Farnborough were already doing twice that.
That was in the days of VC10/Britannia/Tristar Ops at Brize, but bear in mind none of these carry members of the fare paying public although they do often carry the families of service personnel.
Nowadays the mix of traffic is different being Voyager/C17/Atlas/Hercules so monthly movements are probably higher but still no fare paying passengers which is one of the criteria for the establishment of CAS. The fact that Brize already has some CAS is down to 'grandfather' rights ie they (like Lyneham) already had 'Special Rules' airspace instead of just a MATZ so were given Class D when the rules were changed.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1592933
chevvron wrote:Last time Brize 'made a case' for CAS was over 20 years ago and I think they quoted something like 1200 IFR per month where Farnborough were already doing twice that.
That was in the days of VC10/Britannia/Tristar Ops at Brize...


Rather more than 20 years ago if Britannias were still operating out of Brize. The RAF retired the type in 1975.
Hawkwind, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1592941
Dave W wrote:
chevvron wrote:Last time Brize 'made a case' for CAS was over 20 years ago and I think they quoted something like 1200 IFR per month where Farnborough were already doing twice that.
That was in the days of VC10/Britannia/Tristar Ops at Brize...


Rather more than 20 years ago if Britannias were still operating out of Brize. The RAF retired the type in 1975.

Was it that long ago? I had a 'local' flight in one as a cadet in '71; it lasted over 4 hours!
Fair enough, delete Britannia. Brize were trying to 'make a case' for the extension of their SRZ and were comparing their monthly IFR movements with Farnborough, Bournemouth and (I think ) Bristol. They got the Farnborough movements seriously wrong because they only counted military ones and we had already started civil ops.
Last edited by chevvron on Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1593196
Ophelia Gently wrote:So the modern transport types aren't frequently carrying large numbers of Service Personnel? Or do you hold those Serving Personnel in such contempt that they don't merit any form of CAS protection?

I understand (from when we first started negotiating for CAS around Farnborough way back in the early '90s) that D of T guidelines specify a minimum thoughput of fare paying passengers as one of the criteria for the establishment of CAS.
D of T refused to reveal what that minimum number was and in any case, serving personnel are not fare paying passengers. Brize only has CAS already because it used to have an SRZ, otherwise it wouldn't have qualified for the change to Class D.
To put it another way, if Brize only had a Class G MATZ at present, they wouldn't qualify for the establishment of Class D.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1593202
Ophelia Gently wrote:So the modern transport types aren't frequently carrying large numbers of Service Personnel? Or do you hold those Serving Personnel in such contempt that they don't merit any form of CAS protection?

I suppose we lesser mortals in the rest of GA manage to survive without it......
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By kanga
#1593205
Ophelia Gently wrote:So the modern transport types aren't frequently carrying large numbers of Service Personnel? Or do you hold those Serving Personnel in such contempt that they don't merit any form of CAS protection?


They also carry Ministers and their official and media entourage :roll: :)
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1593212
Ophelia Gently wrote:Operating, predominantly, under VFR in relatively manoeuvreable types...

Which means we can see the big stuff and keep out of its way, reducing the “protection” which we both need.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1593223
Which means we can see the big stuff and keep out of its way, reducing the “protection” which we both need.


But the other way around - the big stuff can’t see you! So they still might want something. :-)
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1593225
flybymike wrote:
Ophelia Gently wrote:Operating, predominantly, under VFR in relatively manoeuvreable types...

Which means we can see the big stuff and keep out of its way, reducing the “protection” which we both need.


To quote John McEnro - “You cannot be serious “?
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