Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Talkdownman
#1576275
Ian Melville wrote:Does it still need an instructor to have a 945 or higher rating. to do the signature or has that been dropped as well?

I haven't heard anything to the contrary in this week's 'moving target'. AIUI an FCL.945 FI may still sign a rating revalidation provided he/she did the training flight(s). (I hope that is the case because I have one scheduled for today). Whether that be all of the training or just part of the training, I am now not sure after reading Paul's post. If another FI had done 55 minutes of the training and I had to make it up to one hour with, say, a circuit 'check', I certainly wouldn't sign it.

FCL945 'obligations' are all rather fatuous anyway, for there are no 'hoops of fire' to jump through in order to be bestowed the 'privilege'. The authorisation is given away as freely as a toy in a cornflake packet, all somewhat cheap IMHO. Mine suddenly appeared during an MEP renewal, thus effectively rendering me an unpaid regulator on behalf of CAA FCL. I regard that as a bit of a cheeky imposition. AFAIAC revalidation flights are not cost effective, most PPLs seem to want it done for free, and many of my revalidation trainees subsequently ask if they may log it as PIC or PICUS :roll: Some cringe at the though of 'defacing' their logbook with the letters 'PUT'.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1576282
Talkdownman wrote:AIUI an FCL.945 FI may still sign a rating revalidation provided he/she did the training flight(s). (I hope that is the case because I have one scheduled for today).


That's correct.

IIRC, the FCL.945 privileges were always going to be bestowed on all FIs and CRIs at their next Revalidation (Renewal?). The option to stump up £55 or whatever it was enabled the privileges to be put on the licence early.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1576294
Talkdownman wrote: If another FI had done 55 minutes of the training and I had to make it up to one hour with, say, a circuit 'check', I certainly wouldn't sign it...


Why would you? If you are a Part 945 instructor then you have to have flown the hour to sign off the rating. This is the one thing I thought was clear.

Talkdownman wrote:FCL945 'obligations' are all rather fatuous anyway, for there are no 'hoops of fire' to jump through in order to be bestowed the 'privilege'. The authorisation is given away as freely as a toy in a cornflake packet, all somewhat cheap IMHO. Mine suddenly appeared during an MEP renewal, thus effectively rendering me an unpaid regulator on behalf of CAA FCL. I regard that as a bit of a cheeky imposition. AFAIAC revalidation flights are not cost effective, most PPLs seem to want it done for free, and many of my revalidation trainees subsequently ask if they may log it as PIC or PICUS :roll: Some cringe at the though of 'defacing' their logbook with the letters 'PUT'.


Im quite surprised to hear that, is it because you dont feel qualified to do so or is it just a matter of not being paid? But at the end of the day nobody is forcing you to be a regulator and how would anyone know you are a Part 945 instructor unless you tell them? Do pilots really care if a flight is P1 or PUT? But I will say that if I fly as PUT and am paying for the privilege, I do expect a signature in my logbook, even if only for a 20 minute circuit check. That is not the same as asking or expecting a licence rating to be signed off.

As I said above, I flew with a visiting forumite last time I needed my rating renewed, and if he had asked for a fee for his time, I would have happily paid it. Likewise for an examiner asking for a fee to sign off my licence - if he took care of all the CAA paperwork etc then fine, but if I was expected to do that legwork and it was literally 30 seconds of his time to confirm 12+hrs and a quick signature then I might feel otherwise inside, but certainly wouldnt argue the toss.

Regards, SD..
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1576299
skydriller wrote:
Talkdownman wrote: If another FI had done 55 minutes of the training and I had to make it up to one hour with, say, a circuit 'check', I certainly wouldn't sign it...


Why would you? If you are a Part 945 instructor then you have to have flown the hour to sign off the rating. This is the one thing I thought was clear.


Yes:

FCL.945 or not, all of the hour (minimum) has to be flown with the same instructor regardless of who eventually signs off the licence and form. [Edit: See below; I am wrong here] So the situation Talkdownman describes could never occur.
By malcolmfrost
#1576301
Likewise for an examiner asking for a fee to sign off my licence - if he took care of all the CAA paperwork etc then fine, but if I was expected to do that legwork and it was literally 30 seconds of his time to confirm 12+hrs and a quick signature then I might feel otherwise inside, but certainly wouldnt argue the toss.

What you would be paying for is the money he/she invested in getting the qualification!
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1576323
malcolmfrost wrote:
Likewise for an examiner asking for a fee to sign off my licence - if he took care of all the CAA paperwork etc then fine, but if I was expected to do that legwork and it was literally 30 seconds of his time to confirm 12+hrs and a quick signature then I might feel otherwise inside, but certainly wouldnt argue the toss.

What you would be paying for is the money he/she invested in getting the qualification!


Exactly!!

(Would like to "like" the 2 posts above...but it isnt working)
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By Talkdownman
#1576324
skydriller wrote:
Talkdownman wrote: If another FI had done 55 minutes of the training and I had to make it up to one hour with, say, a circuit 'check', I certainly wouldn't sign it...


Why would you? If you are a Part 945 instructor then you have to have flown the hour to sign off the rating. This is the one thing I thought was clear

FCL.740 wrote:— refresher training of at least 1 hour of total flight time with a flight instructor (FI) or a class rating instructor (CRI).

My interpretation of that is that ANY flight instructor is 'a flight instructor'. I don't see where it says 'only one' flight instructor. So, no, I do not think it is clear.

skydriller wrote:Im quite surprised to hear that, is it because you dont feel qualified to do so or is it just a matter of not being paid?

I think that...

a) EASA is taking a liberty attaching such 'obligations' to a licence without prior agreement, and

b) I think it is unwise of the EASA to confer such FCL.945 obligations onto newly qualified, inexperienced FIs, £55 or not.

I think that the word EASA was probably looking for was 'privileges', and not 'obligations'.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1576339
Dave W wrote:FCL.945 or not, all of the hour (minimum) has to be flown with the same instructor regardless of who eventually signs off the licence and form. So the situation Talkdownman describes could never occur.


Where does it say the hour has to be flown with the same instructor? b. (2) suggests it can be two, so why not three?

(2) When applicants hold both a single-engine piston aeroplane-land class rating and a TMG
rating, they may complete the requirements of (1) in either class or a combination thereof,
and achieve revalidation of both ratings.
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By Talkdownman
#1576353
Dave W wrote:If you, as the instructor, choose to exercise the FCL.945 privileges (you don't have to) then your obligations at that point are as stated.

Hmmm...

Well, I've just done yet another 1119E, obligated or not. Because of the doubts I insist on the full hour if I'm gonna sign it. No hour, no signee. But I dunno why I bother. There is aversion to doing refresher training, aversion to listening to instructors, aversion to logging the training flight as PUT, and aversion to paying for instruction....and it's all probably a can of worms if something subsequently goes wrong...
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1576364
Why the "Hmm"?

There's a mental split to be made between undertaking the instructor role in training for the hour, and the Revalidation Examiner role (which includes FCL.945) that can sign the licence and the 1119E.

If you, as FI/CRI, decide you don't wish the obligation and so choose not to exercise the FCL.945 privileges, then you don't sign anything (except the student's logbook, if you feel you must).

The student then finds an(other) Examiner (non-FCL.945) to sign licence and form.

Talkdownman wrote:Well, I've just done yet another 1119E, obligated or not.


The point is that you are not obligated to sign the 1119E. You choose to do so, but if you do the obligations to do it correctly then kick in.