Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Rob L
#1575025
AndyR wrote:
mick w wrote:High/low key , taught to me when learning to Glide & also in PPL training , for PFL's . :thumright:


Taught to me too on my PPL and my FI course some years later.


In that case Andy, I repeat my previous: Fair enough: which one?

[Edit: meaning where?]
By matspart3
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1575027
Rob L wrote:I still don't think that "make a short approach" or similar non-CAP413 or non-CAP493 terminology should be used when such phrases are aimed at PPLs of unknown experience in the controlled environment. Especially when it doesn't make sense in plain English either.


Rob, the point I was making is that an ICAO phrase exists for the scenario when a controller doesn’t want his or her traffic bumbling off downwind on a V-bomber circuit. Plain English has its place in certain circumstances but I hate ‘keep it tight’.

I have used ‘make a short approach’ at Gloucester, to good effect, where we have a fairly busy stream of IFR training arrivals to integrate with a busy visual circuit. Probably something along the lines of.... “Make a short approach, number one, traffic is a XXXX at five miles”

There’s no phraseology in MATS Part 1 anymore, it all refers to the error strewn, inconsistent dog’s dinner that is CAP413.
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By rf3flyer
#1575029
I think I got caught out with phraseology at Epinal in France once. The RSA venue was just about to close for a fast jet display. I was already in the circuit to land and was asked/told to make a 'short circuit', so I did but in retrospect I think what they meant was 'keep it tight'. :roll:
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1575034
If you told me to make a short approach I wouldn't know what you meant - I've not heard it before this thread. I'd have thought you meant "land short" so would land on piano keys instead of touch down markers and so have a long taxi before vacating runway.

I was taught hi/low key at Prestwick Flying Club. CFI isn't military (one of the instructors is ex).
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By Rob P
#1575040
Military way of describing two points on a virtual circuit. I think High Key is the start of downwind and low key the turn for base?

Alternatively I may well be totally wrong

Edit: Just did some Googling and I was nearly right. High Key is crosswind at 2500 Agl. Fine if you have that much height.

Rob P
Last edited by Rob P on Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1575041
seanxair wrote:What is 'high key' and 'low key'?

Used in military training: Forms no part of standard Civvy PPL training but many (Ex) RAF instructors now teach in civvy situations and, knowing no other, are teaching this method for PFL.
This of course causes confusion, as demonstrated by this thread.

Peter
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1575046
PeteSpencer wrote: Forms no part of standard Civvy PPL training

Says who?
Rules say what needs trained. Doesn't say how to train them. Using high / low key gives easily remembered names to points in a glide circuit. It gives a pilot a framework to start with.
A PFL gets simplified to aim for 1500 feet abeam touch down point (low key) then continue to follow a constant aspect approach to short final. There is a reason it is used by various civi schools and in the BGA manual (don't you think we should learn a bit about gliding from the experts?).
But this does need to be in a separate thread.*

*now a separate thread - thanks mods
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1575050
I think some are missing the point.

The original reference to use of "High Key" and "Low Key" was to make the point that they are not universally understood terms and hence the use of that phraseology is not ideal as it could be confusing.

Just because you as an individual were taught the terms is beside the point. The majority probably weren't.
User avatar
By Rob P
#1575051
riverrock wrote:
Ok - just saw your edit...


That may be, but I'm afraid my Google turned up a totally different diagram to yours (on my phone, too much of a faff to find it again). Just about the only point of agreement was the 2,500 height, something of little use to the bulk of UK bimblers at 2,000 on the QNH. Looks like more confusion than clarification :(

Rob P
User avatar
By Tim Dawson
SkyDemon developer
#1575052
I was taught high key and low key for doing PFLs (Compton Abbas) with the additional information that they were terms originating in the military and it was just one way of helping to judge a visual circuit into a field.
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1575058
Rob P wrote:
That may be, but I'm afraid my Google turned up a totally different diagram to yours

That's how I became an IT professional. Superior googling :D

I agree though - shouldn't be used on the radio.