[rikur_]

How? And for whom?

So genuine question....
I currently take a TS, and ready to request deconfliction advice if (rarely) necessary. Alternatively I could go down the DS route, and choose to ignore most deconfliction advice. As a pilot I'd assumed that the former was easier all round.
Does it make any/much difference to controller workload which way round it's done?

[rikur_]

You don't know they are a mile below.

Guessing they are is not good enough for collision avoidance - you would not want a controller to ignore the information as they guess it will be alright.

And yes, if you accept a service you accept that you may be vectored around, that is what happens when you want to be part of the system. There is a contribution to be made for it to work.

Isn't there an element of balancing risks though. Many things might go wrong on a flight, mid-air in IMC being just one.
As others have said, if you take somewhere like the Vale of York, if you're flying at FL35 in IMC on a carp day in February, even without a radar service I would suspect you are statistically less likely to bump into someone that flying at 2000ft in VMC on a sunny summer Saturday.
I take a pragmatic view to traffic information - a primary contact is unlikely to be someone else flying at FL35 in IMC who is not in radio contact.

[neilmurg]

To be honest it's an internal rant as I'm trying to convince myself that I don't need to do the IR!

great topic, it's really helpful to hear the ATC viewpoint of all that stuff I know little about. It almost makes me want the full IR, maybe after my next IR(r) renewal.

[AlanM]

How? And for whom?

So genuine question....
I currently take a TS, and ready to request deconfliction advice if (rarely) necessary. Alternatively I could go down the DS route, and choose to ignore most deconfliction advice. As a pilot I'd assumed that the former was easier all round.
Does it make any/much difference to controller workload which way round it's done?

It is easier as you say, all round to give a TS. It is Certainly harder workload for an ATCO to watch you and give your aircraft lots of attention against pop up/unknown traffic under a DS - especially at the lower levels and / or beneath CAS. However, the controller may refuse a DS or limit the service for many reasons, (your level/radar cover/workload etc) but not least their perceived ability to give the pilot the legal and moral minimum warnings. The service level, be it BS/TS/DS etc are a legally binding agreement between both parties; a contract; which is why it is a mandatory readback.

That said, if you want a DS ask for one. The contoller will tell you if they are too busy/unable.

[Flyin'Dutch']

I take a pragmatic view to traffic information - a primary contact is unlikely to be someone else flying at FL35 in IMC who is not in radio contact.

You would not know whether there was a primary contact.

Anyway you may take that view but you, or your estate, be happy for a controller to take that view and let two blips merge on the basis of such an assumption.

I guess not.

[AlanM]

You would have the Primary contact called to you (if seen by modern radars) and only if spotted by the controller. However, not all aircraft (flexwings/Gliders etc with little cross section/composite materials) that paint at all as a primary return. But yes, these are unlikely to be in solid IMC but could be operating in holes of cloud.

Airways it is eh?!?!?

(Or perhaps create a known environment from the SFC up where Class G is.....???*)



* only joking

[PaulB]

Or ads-b our mandatory when > 2000’ !!

(I’m joking too..... I think!)

[rikur_]

I take a pragmatic view to traffic information - a primary contact is unlikely to be someone else flying at FL35 in IMC who is not in radio contact.

You would not know whether there was a primary contact.

Anyway you may take that view but you, or your estate, be happy for a controller to take that view and let two blips merge on the basis of such an assumption.

I guess not.

We might be talking at crossed purposes. If I was in receipt of a TS, I would expect to be advised of relevant primary contacts - but it is my choice what I do with that information

[AlanM]

I had to re-read FDs post too.

Yes you should have all traffic called to you - what you do with that information is up to you. No deconfliction advice will automatically be given.

[chevvron]

You would have the Primary contact called to you (if seen by modern radars) and only if spotted by the controller. However, not all aircraft (flexwings/Gliders etc with little cross section/composite materials) that paint at all as a primary return. But yes, these are unlikely to be in solid IMC but could be operating in holes of cloud.

On a modern processed radar, the 'threshold' speed is often set quite high to cancel out ground returns; (in which I include moving vehicles and even boats if you're on an island - I would imagine the Jersey - Portsmouth ferry would give quite a strong echo )50kts is not uncommon which means any aircraft with a GS of less than 50kts and no transponder will not show; this could mean a microlight, powered parachute or glider thermalling. as examples.

[Paul_Sengupta]

You don't know they are a mile below. Guessing they are is not good enough for collision avoidance - you would not want a controller to ignore the information as they guess it will be alright.

Yet this is exactly what happens in commercial aviation. Any primary or non-altitude squawking contact is deemed to be below controlled airspace. Of course, there's the added protection of controlled airspace, but this isn't always infallible as we've been discussing on here for at least 10 years...

Anyway you may take that view but would you, or your estate, be happy for a controller to take that view and let two blips merge on the basis of such an assumption. I guess not.

We do it whenever we step onto a commercial airliner.

[almost professional]

For the OP, now Coventry has no Radar you are unlikely to get a hand over going south as East Midlands cover does not meet Luton/Brize/Farnborough

[chevvron]

For the OP, now Coventry has no Radar you are unlikely to get a hand over going south as East Midlands cover does not meet Luton/Brize/Farnborough

I occasionally handed traffic to them though

[Lefty]

Farnborough have recently been very keen to terminate service before you get to WCO. If going North, you are then without radar until about 20 south of Birmingham (if they accept you).

[AlanM]

Farnborough have recently been very keen to terminate service before you get to WCO. If going North, you are then without radar until about 20 south of Birmingham (if they accept you).

Again, another busy ATC unit without LARS.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-EC54012318859C3C238B29878D1D080F/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/ENR/AIRAC/EG_ENR_6_1_6_3_en_2017-07-20.pdf