[David Wood]

I imply no criticism of the OP here, but I'm always puzzled why pilots flying in IMC OCAS feel the need to have a Traffic Service. I fly IFR OCAS very often and I seldom call for a TS on the basis that, even if given, the information doesn't really help me cos I can't see out. If I was particularly worried about conflicting traffic then I would ask for a Deconfliction Service (with all of the disadvantages mentioned). But one of the beauties of flying in IMC is that almost no-one else does. Generally speaking (Class A permitting) you can then fly higher (and safer) than the vast majority of GA traffic crabbing about in VMC below.

I know that not everyone will agree with me on this, but I personally regard a TS in IMC as more of a comfort-blanket than a genuine aid to safety.

[johnm]

And there you learn the lesson of bastardising a rating designed as a get you home rating and not a mini IR.

OK I’ll bite just for fun You’ll learn nothing in a CB IR you couldn’t already do with your IR(R) because it’s mostly about currency once you can stay the right way up in cloud and follow a route and an approach.

[AlanM]

+1 to DW

IMC in Class G and receiving anything other than a DS is a little worthless really. BS & TS in IMC = “Squeaky bum time!”

[chevvron]

Why didn’t you call Farnborough North and have a TS/DS all the way to Biggin?

Why not go IFR airways all the way? (If you knew the weather was a little rubbish en route and you wanted a straight routeing)

If the weather was rubbish, I'm not surprised Luton refused you an IFR crossing, they have enough problems on their hands with their own IFR arrivals and departures and whilst the notified VFR route was not possible they would not want you blocking an IFR level.
A slight re-route either east or west of the Luton CTR working Farnborough North who could hand you over to Thames for your IFR arrival at Biggin would have been much easier and more logical.

[johnm]

Why didn’t you call Farnborough North and have a TS/DS all the way to Biggin?

Why not go IFR airways all the way? (If you knew the weather was a little rubbish en route and you wanted a straight routeing)

If the weather was rubbish, I'm not surprised Luton refused you an IFR crossing, they have enough problems on their hands with their own IFR arrivals and departures and whilst the notified VFR route was not possible they would not want you blocking an IFR level.
A slight re-route either east or west of the Luton CTR working Farnborough North who could hand you over to Thames for your IFR arrival at Biggin would have been much easier and more logical.

That should be nonsense, getting a transit at a level above the approach tracks can’t be that hard. They used to be able to handle all their sleazy jets and provide LARS 10 years ago. Actually I withdraw that statement i’d Forgotten how low the TMA is there.

[marioair]

Sorry it's just a rant but point is actually that Luton were happy to give me a TS inside CS but from the point between leaving LARS and getting to the Luton zone (being a good boy 5min/10 miles etc) I'm left in a squeaky bum period of BS in IMC.

And there you learn the lesson of bastardising a rating designed as a get you home rating and not a mini IR.

Ok I'll bite. (A) point me where in the rating it says that (B) should we ban IMC flight outside of airways and flight plans if not part of a "get me home" procedure?

[marioair]

Why didn’t you call Farnborough North and have a TS/DS all the way to Biggin?

Why not go IFR airways all the way? (If you knew the weather was a little rubbish en route and you wanted a straight routeing)

If the weather was rubbish, I'm not surprised Luton refused you an IFR crossing, they have enough problems on their hands with their own IFR arrivals and departures and whilst the notified VFR route was not possible they would not want you blocking an IFR level.
A slight re-route either east or west of the Luton CTR working Farnborough North who could hand you over to Thames for your IFR arrival at Biggin would have been much easier and more logical.

And so the ongoing debate for more Class D land grabs and "don't worry we won't refuse you transits" roles on.......

[Flyin'Dutch']

The airspace in the SE of the UK is about the busiest you can find by a fair mile with very little room for anything out of the ordinary - that includes a pop-up IFR clearance.

I am no ATCO but think that your refusal to get an IFR clearance into the LTN zone is related to the IFR separation minima.

There is nothing against using the IR/R as a means to go places but in the UK, if you want/need to get into the system then you are usually better served if you go the whole hog, i.e. plan to fly IFR on a planned and validated route.

Feel free to have a rant at the system.

[AlanM]

(I only heard one other a/c being vectored)

Please don’t fall into the trap of “it wasn’t busy/no excuse for access to CAS” - Luton/Gatwick/Heathrow approach work very few outbounds.

[simoon]

Another +1 for DW as in many cases, all you can get is London Info. Personally I would plan on only transiting LARS units, that way you get a TS outside and a RCS inside. Having got the IR(R) a few years ago now, I am also coming to the conclusion that an IR(R) is a compromise in many ways.

[SteveC]

Another +1 for DW as in many cases, all you can get is London Info. Personally I would plan on only transiting LARS units, that way you get a TS outside and a RCS inside. Having got the IR(R) a few years ago now, I am also coming to the conclusion that an IR(R) is a compromise in many ways.

It’s a compromise in a huge number of ways. It’s an anochrism from a by gone age that is not compatible with our complex and busy airspace. It’s a rating everyone should do to enhance skill and give you better awareness of the risks involved in IFR flight in light aircraft but it’s not an IR and never will be.

Bouncing along low level trying to beg Air trafffic services from busy units is just lunacy in my opinion. It’s been a long time since I was a supporter of it. I take off and climb to FL400 in all sorts of horrible weather and get to hear just how busy the ATC units are when it’s miserable outside and so I think just expecting to blast across busy CAS and expect a pop up clearance is pretty arrogant and show’s a lack of understanding of how the system works.

[Mike Tango]

That should be nonsense, getting a transit at a level above the approach tracks can’t be that hard. They used to be able to handle all their sleazy jets and provide LARS 10 years ago. Actually I withdraw that statement i’d Forgotten how low the TMA is there.

Well, there are departures as well. It's not just about Luton traffic either, when you have a bit of spare time have a look at how the adjacent airfield traffic interacts in the area also.

As for the IR(R), am I correct in thinking it does not allow IFR in Class A? If that's the case then it offers ATC little flexibility in level allocation for the transit, and flexibility is the name of the game to keep pretty pants airspace functioning.

What were the plans if given an IFR clearance in the Class D CTA as one then approaches the the boundary of the D where it abuts lower Class A when, you being aware of this, ask for descent and ATC say negative due to traffic below?

Any IFR clearance across Luton below 4,000ft would likely stop departures for a period and/or at best disrupt arrivals.

[rikur_]

I imply no criticism of the OP here, but I'm always puzzled why pilots flying in IMC OCAS feel the need to have a Traffic Service. I fly IFR OCAS very often and I seldom call for a TS on the basis that, even if given, the information doesn't really help me cos I can't see out. If I was particularly worried about conflicting traffic then I would ask for a Deconfliction Service (with all of the disadvantages mentioned). But one of the beauties of flying in IMC is that almost no-one else does. Generally speaking (Class A permitting) you can then fly higher (and safer) than the vast majority of GA traffic crabbing about in VMC below.

I know that not everyone will agree with me on this, but I personally regard a TS in IMC as more of a comfort-blanket than a genuine aid to safety.

Ok, I'm going to go against the grain on this
I usually accept a traffic service in IMC OCAS
I can only recall of one occasion where I've been passed traffic information that required me to consider taking avoiding action, at which point simply request deconfliction advice.
Most of the time it is usually something 1000ft above or below, or 'will pass behind you' etc .... in which case I know not to suddenly descend/change course/etc, but don't need to actively do anything or be vectored all over the place.

[bookworm]

While it's simply one data point, I had the opposite experience with Luton a few months ago. Passing NE outside their zone, I called up and asked for a TS, thinking it was something of a long shot these days. But a TS was offered and accepted. Approaching Henlow, I was offered a climb into the CTA as it was looking rather busy below.

In my experience, ATC does its best to help when it can, but it depends on the day and the workload.

Last Saturday I went to Calais. I've been impressed recently by Lille, who seem to do a very good bilingual job of looking after a large tract of northern France, and sure enough it was a relaxed service on the way in, including dictation of the phone number for closing the FPL. On the way out my colleague called them by phone to pre-warn our departure from Calais. We got a clearance, but his impression was that the Lille Approach controller was handling not just area control but also tower and ground at Lille -- as well as answering the phone. On the climbout, I called, and got a rather rapid "route direct DVR, climb to FL60, contact London Information, goodbye".

[Andrew Sinclair]

Picking up on a point made above, to pop up IFR with the expectation that there will be the capacity within the ATSU reponsible for that piece of airspace is not likely to be successful.

The training for the IR by whatever training route (integrated, modular, CB-IR etc) really does provide that knowledge and understanding even if it isn’t an explicit LO. I often ask am pleasantly surprised when I am offerred the service.

That said I am far more comfortable flying IFR in IMC without any service than I am flying near VRPs/Nav Aids on gin clear VMC days, sadly events of recent days have added to the stats supporting this logic.