[marioair]

Recent flight from Liverpool to Biggin Hill with 1300ft cloud base over Luton but otherwise VFR along rest of route.

As an IR(R) I didn't bat an eye lid, departing VFR from Liverpool. Somewhere near DTY in IMC so upgraded to Traffic Service from East Midlands.

On QSY to Luton (don't get me started on lack of handovers in uk!) I reported IFR in IMC and request TS and zone crossing.

Controller instantly read back a Basic Service and clearance to cross VFR not about 2000!

I requested again TS and was told negative outside controlled airspace.

My sentiments:

A) the IR(R) is Carp due to the UKs rubbish radar ATSOCAS. If you want an TS on your whole route then you're IR(R) is a chocolate tea pot and really only gives you the Inverse of the EIR.

B) should I have challenged Luton further for a TS and IFR zone crossing (I only heard one other a/c being vectored)

C) if I'm reporting IMC and they are suggesting I need to decend to VMC don't they have a duty of care to give me TS at the very least for the decent?

D) what would this route with a full IR have meant eg what likely flight plan would be filed and flown?

e) anyone fancy flying this route or inverse on an IR so I can see the difference?

/end rant

[johnm]

This route validates on Autorouter

EGGP N0130F100 NANTI L8 HON EGKB, it's fairly close to a straight line at FL100 but the chances of flying it without being vectored around a bit for the convenience of CAT and ATC is pretty low.....

Edited to add:

You might have got a TS from Farnborough North and then a transit from Luton, whether Farnborough would have been able to set that up for you..........

I agree ATSOCAS is a pile of junk but I don't know how ever fix that in the UK. We're so far along the road getting as much as possible off the public sector borrowing requirement through privatisation of everything in sight, except useless office workers, there's no way back.

[G-JWTP]

Generally interested to know why you would want a traffic service and not a deconfliction service when IFR in IMC?

G-JWTP

[johnm]

Generally interested to know why you would want a traffic service and not a deconfliction service when IFR in IMC?

G-JWTP

Because a deconfliction service gets you vectored all over the sky avoiding traffic that shows up on radar without Mode C or Mode S and is generally below the cloud bumbling about VFR in the weeds.

[marioair]

Generally interested to know why you would want a traffic service and not a deconfliction service when IFR in IMC?

G-JWTP

I want a minimum of a TS. I'd expect to be vectored anyway when crossing IFR in CAS even on a TS and given the lack of IFR/IMC low level traffic OCAS I don't see that much value in a DS OCAS. I suppose I could try it as some reverse psychology - ask for a DS to get a TS

[Talkdownman]

I requested again TS and was told negative outside controlled airspace

Probably because Luton is not a LARS participant.

[marioair]

I requested again TS and was told negative outside controlled airspace

Probably because Luton is not a LARS participant.

Sorry don't but that as an argument.

You're supposed to call up well before zone boundary so at some point you need to leave the LARS service. So we are basically saying that even though I'm requesting a transit and will get a RCS as soon as I cross into the zone, that there's no "duty of care" outside it.

[AlanM]

So we are basically saying that even though I'm requesting a transit and will get a RCS as soon as I cross into the zone, that there's no "duty of care" outside it.

So, I am interested as to why you freecall a unit operating inside CAS and when told unable to offer a radar service in the LARS area you see that as the responsibility of that ATCO.

Why didn’t you call Farnborough North and have a TS/DS all the way to Biggin?

Why not go IFR airways all the way? (If you knew the weather was a little rubbish en route and you wanted a straight routeing)

Not criticising- just confused.

[marioair]

So we are basically saying that even though I'm requesting a transit and will get a RCS as soon as I cross into the zone, that there's no "duty of care" outside it.

So, I am interested as to why you freecall a unit operating inside CAS and when told unable to offer a radar service in the LARS area you see that as the responsibility of that ATCO.

Why didn’t you call Farnborough North and have a TS/DS all the way to Biggin?

Why not go IFR airways all the way? (If you knew the weather was a little rubbish en route and you wanted a straight routeing)

Not criticising- just confused.

How would Fboro give me a TS/DS through Luton airspace?

(I only have an IR(r))

[AlanM]

From your story, Luton couldn’t give you an IFR clearance inside CAS and nothing other than a BS outside CAS. Why not then call Farnborough?

[marioair]

Sorry it's just a rant but point is actually that Luton were happy to give me a TS inside CS but from the point between leaving LARS and getting to the Luton zone (being a good boy 5min/10 miles etc) I'm left in a squeaky bum period of BS in IMC.

[AlanM]

Rant and frustration understood.

But they would have given you a Radar Controlled Service inside CAS, not a TS.

(I lose track of the pilot readbacks of “Radio Controlled Service” !!!)

Personally if I were you I would have said “I am IMC and can accept an IFR clearance” if the controller offered a VFR clearance and I was IMC.

[SteveC]

Sorry it's just a rant but point is actually that Luton were happy to give me a TS inside CS but from the point between leaving LARS and getting to the Luton zone (being a good boy 5min/10 miles etc) I'm left in a squeaky bum period of BS in IMC.

And there you learn the lesson of bastardising a rating designed as a get you home rating and not a mini IR.

[Andrew Sinclair]

Obtain an IR or EIR

[flybymike]

Ooh good old Steve back on top form!