[carlmeek]

I just wanted to make one thing clear, as I made a mistake earlier in the thread.

I made the mistake of grouping the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man into the same category.

We CAN fly from any where to Northern Ireland or Isle of Man, but CANNOT go to/from Channel Islands unless the Aerodrome is Certificate it agreement or customs.

I have heard of several pilots flying from regular grass strips to jersey, and this is an illegal flight even with a GAR submitted.

[James Chan]

We CAN fly from any where to .... Isle of Man,

Do you have a reference for this please?

[carlmeek]

Yes, i am referring to this document:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... h_2015.pdf

Page 3, heading "Other places (neither designated nor holding a Certificate of Agreement)"

[James Chan]

Page 3 states:

When using an ‘other place’, you can only fly within Great Britain and Northern Ireland or to/from destinations within the European Union (EU).

IOM is outside the EU?

[Dave W]

Yes, this issue is currently confusing me. I had understood that one could fly from farm strip to IoM but am now less sure. I'm travelling at the moment but intend to convince myself one way or the other later.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the European Union, and lies outside the European Economic Area (EEA). Nonetheless, Protocol Three of the treaty of accession of the United Kingdom permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs.

Am wondering if the table would benefit from a "Can I fly to/from this destination via any airfield?" column.

[carlmeek]

Even I am confused.... I always felt IOM was not allowed. The notes are unclear because they specifically say Channel Islands is outside but don’t mention IOM.

[James Chan]

I’d err on the side of caution then and fly to/from a designated or certificate of agreement aerodrome.

[James Chan]

These intra-CTA restrictions are really quite silly as it was probably originally set up back in the day as our own “mini-schengen” - now spoilt by terrorism and additional security checks.

[kanga]

..

IOM is outside the EU?

yes

[tailbob]

Channel Isles are separate due to the Customs requirement, no such requirement for the Isle of Man. No problem in flying to or from any "Other place" as noted in the guidance, and the Isle of Man, just the 12 hours notice to Police.

[Dave W]

@tailbob; That's what I believe I was told - with just that reasoning - several years ago by an extremely helpful Special Branch officer in a formal exchange of emails; he quoted an official reference but of course I can no longer now find those messages. Annoying. (I'm fairly sure I copied the key paragraphs on here, but that was before The Great Forum Reset, so I can no longer find them from a forum search)

I also reckon that the GAR Guidance must be in error in its paragraph defining an "other place" by not explicitly referring to the IoM. Unfortunately in that paragraph it is not clear where the error lies: Whether
(a) it should have explicitly included the IoM along with the CI as being somewhere you cannot fly to/from "another place", or;
(b) It should have included the IoM when it says "When using an ‘other place’, you can only fly within Great Britain and Northern Ireland or to/from destinations within the European Union (EU)."

The Guidance is very clear to say that "the tables below set out the circumstances in which you are requested to submit a GAR", and that the IoM entries do not say a Designated or CoAA is required as it does for the CI. If it wasn't for the error in the "other places" definition, that would make it clear, and there's a good argument to claim that is more definitive than a definitions paragraph. However, that's not an absolute answer, which is what I need.

I’d err on the side of caution then and fly to/from a designated or certificate of agreement aerodrome.

The purpose of this table is to record the actual rules, not a cautionary set. I won't publish properly until I have a definitive answer to this, and will contact* Border Force if I can't find an answer online.

It may be of circumstantial note that SkyDemon, which is pretty well swept up on all this, puts a flag up if you try and plan a flight from a farmstrip to the CI that says "This flight is not permitted by UK Border Force". No such flag is raised for a planned flight from a strip to the IoM.


*Frustratingly, there is no email enquiry address given on their website; only a postal address. Sigh. [Thinks: Ah; I'll try the NCU email address - why not?! ]

[Tim Dawson]

I just digitised the same table you've been looking at.

[Dave W]

Ah, thanks! I thought that was likely.

[GAFlyer4Fun]

Last time I went to Jersey (a couple of years ago), Jersey wanted their local version of a GAR completing on their computer in the flying club on arrival.

Still true, but immaterial to the planning process. You turn up, they point you at the computer and then you pay the landing fee. There is nothing the pilot can do (or needs to know) in advance.

That is equivalent to saying forget all about GAR planning (outbound or inbound) and someone will sort you out when you arrive. I am sure that is not quite what you meant.

Anyway, DaveW's tables are trying to familiarise its readers with the twists n turns of the process/rules and Note 5 covers it!

[Dave W]

Missed this earlier. Thanks, Colonel.

a) Would making the orange & green boxes white and colouring the text within red(/orange?) & green make the chart less "noisy' visually?

I grew up in the 70s and I like tartan. What can I say?

b) Not sure if it has been mentioned above, but should the "X Not required" boxes (or text) be in green (as in no restrictions, feel free to proceed to Go) and the boxes that do require notice be in red (as in Stop!, something needs to be done).

Probably.

c) Again, not sure if it has been mentioned above, but what logic was applied in choosing the order of the rows?

It is simply the order that the destinations appear in the GAR Guidance document, except that (as usefully suggested by @dublinpilot) "non-EU" and "EU" were moved to the end in order that the complexities within "EU" and "non-EU"are read first.


---
Incidentally, another error that is in v1.2 and which I will correct in the next update (when I have an answer from Border Force on the IoM issue) is that there also needs to be a note in the "non-EU" line that (similar to the "CI" line) makes it clear that you can only arrive/depart at Designated or suitably approved CoA Airfields.