[Rob P]

Mornington Crescent

[G-JWTP]

Ok this is not about cost sharing itself, this is about a particular sentence and what it means. Deep in Europe, with beer and a warm log burning stove, this sentence is being debated:

The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASA aircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.

You can take it where you want as a sentence, our problem is the final bit starting "and this includes". 1 in 3 thinks it means that (say) a c182 based in an EASA state but registered outside can be used to cost share (as far as EASA concerned), 1 in 3 think it cannot, the third is enjoying his beer and overall therefore wins anyway.

In the end, like all things, it means what a Judge says it means, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

G-JWTP

[OpenCirrus619]

This gives (amongst other things) an explanation of terms: http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP ... n_V2.1.pdf

19. A ‘complex motor-powered aircraft’ means:
i) An aeroplane:
- With a maximum certificated take-off mass exceeding 5,700 kg; or
- Certificated for a maximum passenger seating configuration of more than 19;
or
- Certificated for operation with a minimum crew of at least two pilots; or
- Equipped with (a) a turbojet engine(s) or more than one turboprop engine; or
ii) A helicopter certificated:
- For a maximum take-off mass exceeding 3,175 kg; or
- For a maximum passenger seating configuration of more than 9; or
- For operation with a minimum crew of at least two pilots; or
iii) A tilt rotor aircraft.
A ‘non-complex motor-powered aircraft’ or ‘other-than complex motor-powered
aircraft’ (which includes sailplanes and balloons) should be construed
accordingly

...so a C182 with retractable gear, while a "Complex" aircraft for the purposes of (for example) a CPL skill test, is not "Complex" for the purposes of cost sharing.

At least that's how I read it.

OC619

[Paultheparaglider]

Barmaid gone home a while back, but we anticipated well, but now down to last beer. Got a whole castle to ourselves

True, the lady on reception seemed particularly proud of it and its contents, but she has gone home too.

I'm simply amazed they didn't want to stick around and take part in what seems like an extremely interesting discussion with three pilots.

[Irv Lee]

We are checking out the Polish CAA infringement "course".
(Torture rooms were excellent, by the way)

[Dave Phillips]

I'm simply amazed they didn't want to stick around and take part in what seems like an extremely interesting discussion with three pilots.

Shirely not!?

[Irv Lee]

At least that's how I read it.
OC619

well you agree with 1 in 3 here then.
Ps. I only realised later who has an N registration c182. There was no inference at all, I only chose c182 as an example as it is an aircraft that quite a few readers would realise is complex in the older sense of requiring differences training, but not "the other complex"around weight, pilots, passengers, and types of engine brought in to confuse even more.

[Paultheparaglider]

we anticipated well, but now down to last beer.

By the way, de facto, you clearly didn't anticipate well. Cutting your margins that fine is ppp. What would you say to a student who landed on fumes?

[flybymike]

Perhaps Irv's students always make him produce fumes......

[Jonzarno]

we anticipated well, but now down to last beer.

Time to squawk 7700 then......

[Bob Upanddown]

Ok this is not about cost sharing itself, this is about a particular sentence and what it means. Deep in Europe, with beer and a warm log burning stove, this sentence is being debated:

The cost-sharing arrangements apply to any other-than complex motor-powered EASA aircraft and this includes aircraft registered outside of the EASA area but operated by an operator established or residing in the Community.

You can take it where you want as a sentence, our problem is the final bit starting "and this includes". 1 in 3 thinks it means that (say) a c182 based in an EASA state but registered outside can be used to cost share (as far as EASA concerned), 1 in 3 think it cannot, the third is enjoying his beer and overall therefore wins anyway.

The sentencebeing discussed appears on the CAA website as an explanation of European rules for cost sharing.

Is there potential for conflict here as the operator of the N register 182 must comply with the rules of the state of registry first and foremost and, in this case, FAR 61.113 as a starter. There is principal of “common purpose” applied to cost sharing in the US and what the EU may accept as cost sharing, the FAA may not.

It is a badly written sentence.

[ArrowStraight]

I think this may help, but correct me if I'm wrong:

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplic ... il&id=8053

[cockney steve]

@Bob Upanddown said

It is a badly written sentence.

Mr. pedant says, It's a well-written sentence, as an intoxicated trio have been able to accurately reproduce it;-however, it's poorly constructed..

My "not a pilot" brain assimilates it as, "simple aircraft, irrespective of country of registration, may be operated under European cost-sharing arrangements, in the European jurisdiction, provided the operator resides in the said EASA -administered community."

There is some further ambiguity in the definition of "operator"....Is "operating" an administrative function, or the manipulation of the controls which hopefully results in a successful completion .?

[Irv Lee]

we anticipated well, but now down to last beer.

By the way, de facto, you clearly didn't anticipate well. Cutting your margins that fine is ppp.

the forum never waits for the full accident report does it? if I had had a beer in hand when I fell down the stairs just a few minutes after the final one I could have really damaged myself.

[Paultheparaglider]

Or even worse, spilled the beer.