Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1564284
Paul_Sengupta wrote:Well...

I'd say that's what most pilots *do* set out with.


Clearly not, or the level of infringements wouldn’t remain so unacceptably high.
#1564286
Paul_Sengupta”]

[quote="AlanM wrote:
It is something that I personally have a great belief in. It undermines the values in our competence scheme and training plans.


Do you mean underpins? :D[/quote]

Oooops! Slips and errors. Original post edited as it underpins the post! Thanks Paul
#1564289
I absolutely believe that complicated airspace does contribute to pilot error and infringements.

But why then, do people infringe the Jersey Zone so often? In my eyes, the airspace before is not that busy, aircraft are not kept that low and you can call with 10-15nm to run. Whilst there is no geographical boundary, is it that hard? (Not a whinge - genuinely interested)
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1564293
This is a route at 3000’ from Castle Kennedy to Enniskillen.


Sure, but my preferred flying altitudes can be higher at times so it’s not great.

AlanM, I have no idea why one would infringe Jersey other than they were talking to another unit, thought they were having a joined up radar service, and expected to be handed over?
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By Tim Dawson
SkyDemon developer
#1564299
James Chan wrote:I also asked a decade ago why Skydemon makes a meal of UK lower airspace too. I still can't read much if you look at the airspace up to say 12,500ft.


That was clever of you since SkyDemon didn't exist a decade ago.

The reason we don't attempt to simplify some bits of airspace is that it's error prone as a process. I think I can see an error in the Garmin chart someone posted above for example.

UK airspace looks a bit of a mess at 12000 feet because it IS a bit of a mess. In fairness to AIS this is gradually getting better.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1564306
Oh well. It's when 7 - 8 years starts to feel a bit like 10. :?
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1564342
Crash one wrote:
flybymike wrote:In 1960 we didn’t have to wear no crash helmets mate.....



Civilians didn't quite correct.
If you were a member of the military you certainly did.
And your point being?


My goodness you’re a grumpy fellow.

My point was to back up your remarks about the safety culture in 1960 being rather more relaxed than that of the present day.

If you need any further support please let me know.
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By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1564344
The Jeppview depiction doesn’t show airways P6, P600, P620 or L10, which do affect you if you plan to fly at anything above FL 050. If you filter SD, yo7 can get all of those to disappear from the display. (However they are still there - so you stand an odds on probability of infringing).
#1564350
flybymike wrote:
Crash one wrote:
flybymike wrote:In 1960 we didn’t have to wear no crash helmets mate.....



Civilians didn't quite correct.
If you were a member of the military you certainly did.
And your point being?


My goodness you’re a grumpy fellow.

My point was to back up your remarks about the safety culture in 1960 being rather more relaxed than that of the present day.

If you need any further support please let me know.


Sorry, getting trigger happy :D :D
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By cockney steve
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1564611
As most are aware, I'm not a Pilot, but have had a long interest in aviation....I thought I could read a map /chart/atlas. :oops:

Observations on the screenshots kindly posted by @Dave Phillips
Jepp. mass of overlapping squares/triangles, mix of tma/cta/(c) (d) apparently changing at random from one intersection to the next........sorry, I did a 180 and ran away.

SD....well, a bit more intuitive, some coloured blocks all clearly marked with levels/heights, but it all goes to pot at the lower and RH sides, where these black-edged areas appear to extend 5-deep over Aldergrove and 7-deep over Belfast....very, very confusing....I'll leave it to the CAT peeps and take the ferryboat.
Garmin,- simpler, but what's this? abrupt changes from one box to the next....see lower 2,-105-35 next to 195-35,which, moving up to the top-left of that block, is bounded by a small triangle....no height indication there!...in turn, the upper edge of that triangle abuts a stub off the outer circular bit around Aldergrove heights?
I'll keep clear, there be dragons lurking.
@GrahamB postsaSD filtered screenshot....this is much clearer, but still a lot of jumbled lines with no markings and little indication of how much "clearance" around the Magenta line, whilst trying to cross this series of Tyro-snares.

I appreciate that these things need training and practice to understand, but to low-hours people, this is very-much a complicated, high-workload scenario. there is little that's easy to interpret or grasp. Iwould imagine, if one could sit down and model it in 3D, the whole jungle would become more transparent, but you can't carry a 3 D model in the cockpit, so, somehow, your rookie has to interpret this mass of overlapping 2D areas, into a 3D image and place themselves within it and plan how to transition from one section to the next. or, simply avoid the whole shebang.

Unfortunately, that's not an option for some , where there are all these Controlled Areas, leading to the tightly -constrained "Mig -Alleys" as they seem to be described.

My only surprise is that there are so few incursions.


Anybody recall the kid's game where you all sat round the table and piled hands one on top of the other ? The hand on the table was pulled out and placed on top of the pile....until someone anticipated wrongly and "infringed" by pulling their hand free before it reached the table...they were "out".......similarities :roll: :wink:
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By stevelup
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1564617
In the example screenshot, SkyDemon is not configured in a sane manner. It's showing all airspace from ground level up to FL-nose-bleed.

Most people when using SkyDemon for planning will set the airspace filtering in an appropriate manner. In flight, it dynamically changes based upon your current altitude and 'trend'.
#1564628
stevelup wrote:In the example screenshot, SkyDemon is not configured in a sane manner. It's showing all airspace from ground level up to FL-nose-bleed.



I disagree, it is set up as one would have it at the initial stages of planning. All of the airspace depicted has a base level of FL55 or below; I don't think any of us would think of 5500ft as nose bleed territory, especially since there are a few cheeky 1700ft spot heights and the Mourne mountains, just off the bottom right of the screenshot, top-out at 2790ft.

Of course, once you've decided on a rough transit level for your route, it is clearly worthwhile applying appropriate filters, something the Jepp doesn't allow.
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