[Lefty]

Routing from St Catherine's point to Orist then Cap de la Hague keeps you clear of Danger areas and Q41 so you can climb to FL100 if you want.....

I fly to the CI about 2-3 times per month and my normal routing is either ABSAV or St Catherine's Point to ORIST as it keeps you out of both Airway Q41 and the danger areas - and allows you up to 10,000 ft. However in practice I rarely go above 6-7000 on that trip.

Both Guernsey and Alderney definitely have no capability to accept or process any kind of electronic GAR ( from anyone). (Correct when I left Alderney at 17.30 yesterday !)

Jersey may now accept a GAR Online GAR, but last time I tried (back in April) I had to use Jersey's own online GAR.

[AlanM]

ORTAC/ORIST direct ALD is easy - though you may be asked to fly level at 3000 or 4000ft if they have Instrument training traffic at ALD/BANLO.

As for overflying Guernsey - that will depend on their IFR traffic in/out at the time. The Guernsey-Jersey route will probably be at 1000ft which is the standard inter-island level. However, ask for 2000ft if you wish.

The main thing to note is that your flights is not common - so make sure your FPL has the requested route in it. Also, as a tip - put "Via ALD/GUR" in Field 18 will possibily highlight it.

Worth also reviewing the CI VRPs - as they are now in use more often in the SERA world here.

Call 125.2 south of KATHY with c/s only and you will be given a squawk and asked to verify
Your level. As soon as you can, let 125.2 know that you want that route and expect a transfer to Guernsey Approach on 128.650, then Jersey Approach on 120.3.

Enjoy!

*edited to say - if you like a higher Altitude - ask for FL80 - ORIST/ALD/GUR/JSY. You may be asked to maintain and stay VMC instead of a "not above FLxx" due to IFR traffic.

[Iceman]

Worth also reviewing the CI VRPs - as they are now in use more often in the SERA world here.

If wanting to route via notified VRPs and use these on the FP then electronic FP entry does not allow straight forward textual names, and packages such as SkyDemon will translate these designated points into Lat / Long on the submitted FP. Do controllers actually look at the Lat / Longs with a view to working out where they are or do the controllers just anticipate a 'standard' routing to the destination and clear that ?

Iceman

[AlanM]

Ok that's interesting. We see a lot of lat/long references on FPL routeings and they mean little too us!

We can move an Electronic Mouse around and get a Lat/Long on the screen but it is cumbersome to be honest - and normally met with "f***all help is that" from my colleagues (and me!)

The zone entry point such as ORTAC is all that is needed. Generally, for us, we get a boundary time from the FIR and that makes it smoother as the electronic strip appears in the pending bay. (If not, I have to open a window and search the FPL database and ask for a squawk. Not that onerous just not as slick)

Is that the same for Field 18 or just the routeing box? (As in can you still put "Via ALD/GUR")

[TLRippon]

Just don’t get distracted and fly over the Cherbourg prohibited area or the power stations on the west cost of the Cherbourg peninsula below the notified heights.

[AlanM]

Good reminder of the theee main French Prohibited areas. The French will launch intercept aircraft and have other aircraft patrolling nearby!

As for the FPL for VRPs this is on the http://www.cicz.co.uk website;

[johnm]

I go backwards and forwards from Glos to Alderney regularly. I file the same route whether IFR or VFR and it's chosen purely to get the Eurocontrol computer to accept an IFR plan.

EGBJ DCT WOTAN DCT ORTAC

I then fly due South negotiating actual route with controllers as I go. Sometimes it is due South, sometimes I have to wiggle round an active D026, but it's easy to do, especially with a tool like Skydemon.

[Oldfart]

Ben
Unrealisticly low?
The vast majority of users of that Airway are pressurized turboprop and jets with the odd Aurigny Dornier. All could fly happily at FL 90 + freeing up a safer level for VFR crossings. Or make it Class D to use with a Clearance as Jersey airspace.
Unfortunately we inherit an Airways System designed for DC3s, other than airfield arrival and departure routes no reason for any Class A below 10000ft. They do quite happily to 18000 in USA.
Pie in the skies though in my lifetime!
What happened to the planned raising of Transition Level UK wide to a common FL100 or above, another NATS dinosaur??

[AlanM]

What happened to the planned raising of Transition Level UK wide to a common FL100 or above, another NATS dinosaur??

18000ft TA is still bubbling away..... but it can't be just the UK for it to work properly..... Harmonisation across Europe is needed.

[BEX]

Old Fart wrote:

.....the odd Aurigny Dornier. All could fly happily at FL 90 + freeing up a safer level for VFR crossings. ..

The trouble is, it's only 19 miles from Alderney to ORTAC, so to stay within CAS, which is what Public Transport flights should aim to do, would require a pretty impressive climb off the ground. Possible in a B752, but A Big ask for a small Do228.

Even if this stellar climb performance was available, the sector length from Alderney to Southampton would make the cruise at FL90 (and FL100) very short. Probably not worth the effort in getting up to those levels, only to have to come back down again.

FASVIG were successful in getting the lower levels of Q41 reclassified as Class G. (now unused, since the demise of the Aurigny Trislanders). That's not a bad achievement, with the base now at FL55 rather than FL35 which effectively capped crossings to 3000ft.

BEX

[Paul_Sengupta]

Probably not worth the effort in getting up to those levels, only to have to come back down again.

I don't know the physics behind these things, but the Cardiff to Dublin flight in a 737 climbs up to altitude then pretty much immediately begins the descent. There is virtually no cruise portion of the flight. To me, it would make sense to just cruise lower, but I know nothing.

As an aside, I've sometimes mused that this would be the cheapest way of flying for someone paying tach time, though it might not be the most fuel efficient or kindest on the engine in a piston aeroplane!

[James Chan]

Not really grounds for suggesting FL55 being "stupidly" low though

The only logical reason that I concluded the airway remained FL55 AND Class A was due to under staffing.

[AlanM]

Not really grounds for suggesting FL55 being "stupidly" low though

The only logical reason that I concluded the airway remained FL55 AND Class A was due to under staffing.

Could you explain that logic to me?

[James Chan]

Sure. FASVIG originally proposed that the lower levels of the airway could be made Class D.

From: http://docs.fasvig.info/ACP/FASVIG%2020 ... 20V1.0.pdf

Paragraph 6.1 states: NATS is not in a position to provide an ATS in the new Class D airspace without considerable investment in human and system resource.

[AlanM]

It is not really an under-staffing issueas you inferred as Q41 is delegated to Jersey south of MARUK-DOMUT.

Definitely a cost issue with data transfer and workload/re-sectorisation. Also a cost in conversion training for ATS staff.

However, today I offered a climb in the zone to 7 light aircraft heading north and only one wanted above 3000ft. Only 1 inbound came in Shoreham-ORIST at FL60 (IFR so could have gone into Q41). All the other inbounds were 3000ft and below.