[CloudHound]

Part of the pre take off checks instilled in me by Rollo, Dugdale, Ratcliffe, McCabe und Euteneuer at LAC in C150s and 172s was after selecting 10 of flap to put on full aileron and see that the up acting one was down the same as the adjacent flap.

The theory being that ailerons needed 10 degrees to be fully functional on Cessnas. It works on my Stinson which has 3 stages of flap deployment too.

[ianfallon]

Very sad. I used to fly that 150 from Bourn

You have to wonder if there wouldn't have been an accident if the tree gap was still aligned with the end of the runway.

I see this report is out too - sadly another 150 flap related fatality - this time at my current base

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-in ... oad-report

[chevvron]

That would have been G-AT/HF/MC/KF and KD. With Preece, Page, Rudder, Pasco and Smythe? In my case 1982 . Bob Smythe taught me some techniques not in the POH. Like alternative flap settings, rolling starts and not trying to hold on the brakes on wet/muddy grass. Also how to leave two tyre tracks in a snowy field on a PFL.

This was 1971 so G-AT no but the other 4 yes. I flew with Page (for my GFT) but not Smythe although he was there (don't know the other names). My main instructor was Whittaker but he left part way through my 6 week course and was replaced by a guy called Harper who had been instructing in some central African country. He told us stories of the abilities of the locals which I cannot repeat here otherwise the PC brigade would probably try to get this forum closed!
On my first 'land away' to Norwich, he forgot his headset so sat reading a newspaper and as we passed Mildenhall, a KC135 went underneath us which he saw out of the corner of his eye. Thereafter he took a bit more interest in the flight! He'd never landed at Norwich before either.

[kanga]

.. ( I'm usually a PA28 peddler) ..

you sell them door-to-door ?

[Emerald Islander]

Imagine you went to a hardware store for a drill and the assistant said “I have this wonderful old model, it works great, but just be careful you don’t select Reverse while Hammer mode is engaged or you might get electrocuted. Its nothing to worry about, this has only happened to a few forgetful people”. Would you buy such a product, use it, give it to others?

The GA industry is in collective denial. The beloved C150 has a darkside and it is killing unsuspecting pilots in a variety of different ways, one of which is in relation to the use of flaps at take-off or in a go-around. GASCO highlighted the problems with the C150 in 2010 yet nothing was done and now three further fatal C150 accidents have occurred in the UK since that could have and should have been prevented.

Attempting to take-off with full flap 40 deployed in a C150 is hazardous and may seriously injure or kill. It is tragically a common occurrence on C150 Models F-M which have an electrical flap system. It is important to note that many flap related C150 accidents occurred without the aircraft being overweight, although weight is an aggravating factor. Out of the 1,200 Fatal C150 accidents that have occurred in the US, 5% relate to issues with flaps. The problem also affects other underpowered models with electrical 40 degree flaps such as the C172 (F-M +N).

40 years ago the manufacturer identified and mitigated the problem by introducing the C152 with a redesigned flap system. While it is a testament to the quality of the manufacturers engineering that the C150 is still flying 60 years after it was designed the aircraft’s systems haven’t kept pace with modern safety developments and C150s now are statistically far more hazardous than other safer aircraft such as the C152 and C172S. A safety paradox also exists where pilots and instructors trained or accustomed to these safer aircraft have acquired “habits” that exacerbates the situation in a C150.

What can be done about the C150?

Type specific instruction should be regarded as essential yet many instructors have never received specific training on the C150 type. Safety Seminars and Leaflets highlighting the hazard can also help, but is only of benefit to those in attendance or those who read them, and only effective for a short period.

The correct solution would be to remove or significantly mitigate the hazard. In an ideal world, mechanical flap stops could be installed at 30 degrees. An electrical warning light could be installed in addition to the mechanical flap indicator whenever the flaps are over 15 degrees. A circuit breaker could solve the fuse problem. A gated selection lever system or the original Johnson bar manual flap system used in A-E models could be retrofitted.

But since none of this is possible pilots and owners must be warned. A one line in the POH ‘Flap deflections greater than 10° are not recommended at any time for take-off.’ is totally inadequate.

At the very least, good safety practice requires that a detailed description of the potential hazards, preventative and recovery techniques be included in the POH and a placard should be placed in the cockpit near the flap switch stating, “WARNING INCORRECT USE OF FLAP CAN KILL”.


EI

[Lockhaven]

exceed the flight manual MOTW up to 25%

An increase in max take off weight by 25% or an increase in useful load by 25%? (genuine question)

The authorities allowed a 25% increase over and above the published AFM MTOW so basically an increase in useful load to allow for extra fuel.

[flybymike]

A 25% increase in MTOW would allow almost double the useful load in a 150/152.
Interesting take off characteristics!

[JoeC]

Re: restricting 150 flap travel to 30 degrees

It's not the difference between 30 and 40 flap that will kill you it's putting in full flap of any flavour on a go-around after a bounced landing at slow speed , keeping the nose in the air and not responding appropriately.

[Lockhaven]

A 25% increase in MTOW would allow almost double the useful load in a 150/152.
Interesting take off characteristics!

Yes in some aircraft mostly the multi piston types they were curvature of the earth take-off's.

If I remember correctly say a Piper Seneca or Piper Chieftain we would be carrying around an extra 300 gals of avgas in ferry tanks in the cabin plus your survival kit, raft, portable HF radio installation, dismantled pax seats, and all the other junk to get them say from the USA to the Middle East or over the Pacific to Australia.

It always gave me an insight to what a fully loaded Lancaster bomber must have been like

[Rob L]

There is nothing wrong with 40 flap. Follow the POH.

Rob

[kanga]

Some Forumites and Listers may recall the longtime kangamobile, a Robin HR200/100 with 108hp. The flaps, designed by Robin for 40°, were at CAA insistence restricted to 30° of travel precisely because of the poor performance on a full power goaround. It did mean slightly longer landing rolls, of course, but I could easily land it anywhere from which I'd want to try taking off again. It was lovely in the air, although I always preferred the DRs with the Jodel wing.

Incidentally, echoing the MoT thread in the nonAv Forum, it was a Morgan aircraft. The outofsequence reg reflected that chosen when imported new by a member of the Morgan family, his initials..

I was certainly taught both the use and limitations of 40° on the 150 by instructors leading up to my GFT in one which included a fullflap approach to a PFL field and then a goaround towards some tall trees..

[MichaelP]

We have to teach soft field landings.
In the 150/152 I teach 20 degree flaps for this procedure as a soft field landing is also a test of the surface and you may want to go around.

Trying to take off with 40 degrees flaps in a 172 caused a crash, youtube: "last minutes Cessna". HS TVS.
The pilot and I had many arguments... This crash caused a lot of trouble for all of us who fly in Thailand.
This chap also flew as an instructor but had no rating anywhere... He and a student were 150lbs over the gross weight limit for the Cessna 152.
He never did his checks.

If you do "controls full and free and in the correct sense", and look at them to confirm before takeoff you can not miss it if the flaps are down.

Checks are the answer. Using the checklist is one thing, but belts and braces, if you learn the ATA checks you can do a memory recital to confirm everything has been done.

Lined up at Bang Phra, wires ahead, the instructor selected 10 degrees flaps in the Cessna 150. I put them back up, zero flaps, and told him to read the POH.

Once near Pulborough I tried to get G AYRO (150) off a soft field in which it had forced landed.
Selected 10 degrees, and at my go/no go decision point the nosewheel was stuck to the mud, and the airspeed was too low, 35KIAS, so I closed the throttle.
With flaps selected there is more weight on the nosewheel, and less effect from the elevator. Full up it's probably stalled due to the angle of the airflow from the depressed flaps.
Try number 2 was with zero flaps, and at my decision point the ASI read 45KIAS with the nosewheel clear of the mud... I can fly.
Three seconds on the flap lever and ten degrees went on without me looking at it and the aeroplane popped off the dirt.

Once I eavesdropped on a PPL flight test. Due to the examiner's weight the candidate found the aeroplane to be 45lbs over weight. (152).
The examiner said that it was alright and off they went.

The Cessna 150/152 are maligned by many skygods, and yes you can get away with many things, flying and landing with less than ideal skill.
But skill can still be developed by a good instructor using this aeroplane. If you learn to fly it well it's not so difficult to transition.
It did not take me long to transition to a tailwheel aeroplane after learning in the 150... Landings were the same, just keep the tailwheel aeroplane straight.

[townleyc]

I have many hours in that aircraft, as well as doing my QXC and GST in it.

I only ever set 40 degrees of flap in the preflight. On my GST I was overweight, and my examiner was quite happy. It was usual practice on training flights 2 up .

Also went around many a time on 30 degrees of flap, until 300 ft, with no problem, although that was on the old runways.

The flaps were never a problem, except on my first flight in the aircraft - my 2nd solo nav. My usual instructor had told the instructor supervising that flight to do a circuit or two before sending me off, but he just gave me a quick brief and sent me off. When I arrived back, I managed to lose final setting the flaps, but recovered enough to land safely.

Great aircraft that I enjoyed many times.


KE

[mick w]

There is nothing wrong with 40 flap. Follow the POH.

Rob

I have to agree , but , with hindsight & given the previously mentioned stats , surely limiting to 30 deg. would have prevented a lot of accidents ?.

[JoeC]

given the previously mentioned stats

Assuming that the source is valid. So 5% of accidents in C150 is related to flaps...

Was this related to 40% flaps?

Is 5% of accidents related to flaps more or less than any other aircraft?

Whats the analysis of these accidents - is it ergonomic? human factors, mishandling, training etc?

I've yet to be convinced and believe me it wouldn't take much as I am nervous of any issues such as this.