Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1559847
I have been reading this & considering if I should comment ( as the aircraft belonged to a client) .

But...I do feel its worth me mentioning that the AAIB report hasn't pointed out that the passenger was unfortunately the pilots father in law & there was real speculation/ potential that the 'human factor' of the responsibility of taking your family flying and the 'distraction' this 'might' have caused hasn't been really explained/ explored.

As however has been alluded to the additional mental pressure this can apply is always worth being aware of - I know from my own flying with friends and family I always have to have a 'chat' with them to 'leave me alone' if needed to allow me to retain some focus on what's going on - so if my usual relaxed chatty persona vanishes while I am doing stuff - not to take it to heart or keep asking me a question if I don't reply or seem focused on something else .

While the switch set up is far from ideal for me in these 150 - I think its of benefit to everyone to ensure that if you do drop the flaps to 40' in a walk around ( or anything else ) - you don't then get distracted to the point of not putting them back up.

While the underlying cause of the accident was the full flap selection - the actual reason for it may never be known - however the potential for a moments lack of focus/ attention etc in this case seems to have had a fatal outcome :( .
Cessna57, kingbing liked this
#1559871
JoeC wrote:But please note that all the notched control does is pre-select a flap setting. It's not set and forget - you still have to visually check the moving indicator next to the the control or visually check out of the window.

Which I do on the ground. But in the air wouldn't the feel be enough to tell you if it'd gone wrong?
kingbing liked this
#1559943
Have read with interest and sadness at the report and comments posted. Late to reply thanks to poor internet service on Malta. As a 150 owner with over 260 hours logged in her since May 2016 I agree with a lot of what has been said the flap with arrangement in most models leaves something to be desired!

From my own operating point of view my pre flight includes flap deployment to 40 degrees then a walk around from the front clockwise. On reaching the port flap I stoop under switch on the master
and full retract.

Then continue with the starboard side finishing at the sharp end. Always on the controls full and free check I look over my shoulder (at this stage 10 degrees flap has been set) I want to make sure that the flap
indicator matches the visual presented.

Nothing wrong with the 150 provided you take care with the flap settings and useage, sadly as we have seen distraction can and has proved fatal on occasions.

40 degrees gives the confidence to put her down in the tightest of spots I have to say I would feel a lot happier making a precautionary landing in the 150 rather then the Piper Archer I also fly.
Here's a clip of me landing at Monewden earlier this summer (around 3 minutes 40) using 40 degrees.

https://www.facebook.com/monewdenairfield/
#1559948
I’ve owned and operated 3 types of Cessna over the years, admittedly not the C150 or variants, but all with slightly different electric flap deployment mechanisms/switches. There are two gauges I treated with greater than normal respect: the flaps indicator and the fuel gauges. Both required visual double-checking, fuel with tank dipping and monitoring consumption by time and power; flaps by visual confirmation. My old Reims Rocket 172 was notorious for flap indictor drag, it had the same type of switch as this C150. The solution was ‘count and look’. ‘Count’ to get the angle of deployment ('five elephants' was about 10 degrees), ‘look’ to confirm the flap was more or less at the right angle. Sometime later the flap indicator might catch up and was worth a double-check.

Checklists are to be respected but double-check routines are equally life savers. A quick glance out of the window and the difference between 10 degrees and 40 would have been obvious. Mind you, in the C172 Rocket, a 210hp fuel injected Continental always helped if you messed up the flap selection timing delay on the go-around. Even more forgiving on the C182.
#1560060
kingbing wrote:A slight;y different but related issue:

I am a PPL student shortly to do my skills test. I've mostly flown 152s. A recent solo trip in a 150 was a bit hairy on an enforced go-around called by ATC. On a shorter than usual runway I approached on 30 degrees flaps . Go-around called practically as the main wheels touched the ground. Full power and carb heat off, then flicked the flap switch to retract and focussed on flying the aircraft to get back to speed. About 50kts from memory at this point. Result: poor climb as the flaps retracted all the way in one go. I quickly worked out what was going on, so put 10 degrees back on. Happier climb. But hairy for a moment.

I much prefer the 152s notched flap control for this reason. I guess if I flew the 150 more often I would work out a counting system for flap selection.


I was taught drag flap away only, (anything over 20 is just drag), then carb heat off and power. Sort flaps out at 300'.

On my test I had a rush of blood to the head and reversed this, that's when I first found out it's funny what stress can do.

Isn't it odd what one instructor says is a massive "no no" isn't that important to another.
kingbing liked this
#1560954
As I wrote before... For a soft field I teach 20 degrees, 40 only when you know the surface is good and know that you won't have to go around.

I avoid applying flap while banked just in case they deploy asymmetrically, and this has happened to a friend of mine. He flew back with 30 degrees on one side and maybe ten on the other.

The go around procedure is so very very important.

"Go around, I say again go around"

I see students apply no power, half power and correctly full power.

Sometimes I shout "POWER, FULL POWER, Control the aeroplane, flaps twenty, start to climb flaps ten, continue, flaps up".

The result of not doing this, in a Cessna 172 perhaps, in my opinion lead to the fatal crash of an MD82 at Phuket.
If the pilot's instructor had insisted a go around be performed as above, the pilot would not have had the habit of retracting the gear and the flaps before realising he had not opened the throttles.

What I do not like is that instructor standards can be so low, C150/152s have too many accidents and yet they are very safe designs.
We still need to teach well, even in an 'easy' aeroplane.
Irv Lee liked this
#1560958
MichaelP wrote:The go around procedure is so very very important.

"Go around, I say again go around"

I see students apply no power, half power and correctly full power.

Sometimes I shout "POWER, FULL POWER, Control the aeroplane, flaps twenty, start to climb flaps ten, continue, flaps up".

(Later edit just to correct text prediction errors)
I saw exactly this apparently random set of actions often from qualified pilots, and having seen the results, always simulate a going around drill from full flap at normal stalling heights during check outs before getting near the circuit or the practice forced landing, really for risk management reasons.
Then I started to tie it to what sort of runway they learned on, and I now believe, because they do so few go arounds, they revert under light stress to touch and go drill after touch down from their student days.
Learned on a "not long" runway, they go full power, nose horizon, slight climb happens, retract flap in stages whilst on full power.
Learned on a longer runway, set approx half throttle, (wrong for go around), start retracting flap but leave some on, then go to full power, then complete flap retraction.
Learned on very long runway, start (and sometimes even complete) retraction of flap before touching throttle. (very wrong)
I think the ones who do it wrongly are all confusing the actions required for go arounds with the way they were taught to touch and goes, forgetting that the wheels on the runway were physically stopping lost height when they retract flap without full power during a touch and go. But in a go around, the wheels are not touching the runway....
Last edited by Irv Lee on Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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User avatar
By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1560964
I think that an airline pilot hearing me shout "POWER FULL POWER" years after learning to fly with me is one of the best alert - annunciators I can program into the student.
I don't have to be there...

I often hear "I hear your voice when...." from former students.

Instructors have a huge role to play in the future safety of their students. Lessons learned in the Cessna 150/152 affect the safety of the Airbus 350 that comes later on.
#1561287
I'm frequently disappointed with the standard of go-arounds particularly in the standard club spamcam. So much so that on any dual hour with an instructor with me you will get a go around.

On way to many occasions it has frightened me and on a couple of occasions it would have been the end of me.

I have certainly seen the don’t apply full power brigade on go around (Why an earth) then there is lets retract all the flaps as quickly as possible so it sinks like a lead balloon. and then there are the ones that nearly kill me as they retract the flaps when when the aircraft is below the green arc. Often they would be better off doing nothing as they turn an aircraft that is flying to one that isn't.

Fortunately it is relatively easy to fix.

Unfortunately I can’t do anything for all the people whose license I have to re-validate after doing an hour of aeros where they flew downwind the wrong way and were plus 20 knots on final. And I suspect that they will be equally poor at the go around to.
Wide-Body liked this