Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 28
#1557342
Come on spill the beans, you can't just leave it there

MOR'd for entering an ATZ within a MATZ, while on a basic service (due to crappy radios and a "misunderstanding") during a training flight - is the gist of it.

Thought nothing of it after I got notification at work, with the general consensus that I'd just dropped a minor b*llock and would pay more attention in future, then about 6 weeks later got a letter from the CAA.

Phoned them up, and long story short, no room for arguing, and the chap at the CAA said if I refuse to go I'd have my licence suspended.

So I thought I best go then... to find they're everywhere in the country that I'm not, it's a day I have to take off work, oh, and it will cost me £200 to attend.

Hopefully I'll learn something. :?

Just wondering if anyone else is going? And what sort of reasons people are having to attend?

Rumours locally of an NPPL with no RT licence busting Manchester CTR, with his mode-S transponder turned off last year, and supposedly all he did is failed an online Awareness Course and that was that. So it's a bitter pill to swallow, but rather enter an ATZ in class G without proper permission that bust the LTMA or LHR CTR. :cry:
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557349
Just on a general training/learning point, I often gave post ppl pilots a route of Popham-Aldebury for a Nav leg, to see what they would do. One or two would have about four turning points in a complex way of avoiding the matz (which invariably went wrong in practice), but most would do direct, and had a line on a chart that would cross a Matz and miss Middle Wallop ATZ by a minor amount. You wouldn't believe the number of pilots who, on a good weather day, would turn in a plan for transit at 2000' when just a little higher would give them a "safety net" over an ATZ infringement if they were just a little off track to the north side. When pointed out, this sort of thinking was completely new to them.
#1557351
CAP1404 ( http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%201404_V2.6.pdf) is written in such a manner that the course of action varies depending on the many factors that cause and result from an infringement.

Minor infringement
For example, an infringement which does not compromise flight safety or cause service disruption, where the aircraft/pilot has not previously infringed.
■ Usual minimum CAA action: warning letter or pilot instructed to undertake the online tutorial/ test or attend the Airspace Infringements Awareness Course

Intermediate infringement
For example, an infringement which does not compromise flight safety but the aircraft/pilot has previously infringed; or an infringement which causes service disruption to IFR traffic.
■ Usual minimum CAA action: pilot instructed to undertake the online tutorial/test or attend the Airspace Infringements Awareness Course

Major infringement
For example, an infringement that compromises flight safety; the aircraft/pilot has previously infringed.
■ Usual minimum CAA action: immediate provisional suspension of licence; attend the Airspace Infringements Awareness Course, and/or to attend a pilot training organisation for remedial training, as may be determined by a CAA Flight Examiner, and sign-off

Attendance on the Airspace Infringements Awareness Course does not have to be preceded with failure to pass the on-line test (there is no 'online Awareness Course') and it there to help pilots learn.
James Chan liked this
#1557362
Were you offered the online Awareness Course first

Nope. And this is the first MOR/event I've featured in, so not a repeat offender.

I said this to the CAA bloke over the phone but he wasn't having it - said it's not tit for tat, and they had decdided my options were attend the course, or if I refused they would likely suspend my licence, make me attend the course anyway, then go to Gatwick for a review and pay for a flight test at my own expense with a CAA examiner. So I get the impression it's a bit like a speed awareness course, and the cynic in me sees £200 going from my account thinking they've got a nice little earner there.

Apparently from August it's all got a bit more serious (my MOR happened beginning of July) and from what he told me, they have a meeting every Tuesday, look at all the MORs for infringements, and decide on the action that will be taken. For many it will be letter through the door, and come and do a course. For more serious it will be suspension of licence straight away.
#1557368
sapperkenno wrote:
Were you offered the online Awareness Course first

Nope. And this is the first MOR/event I've featured in, so not a repeat offender.

the cynic in me sees £200 going from my account thinking they've got a nice little earner there..



The cost of the course to the infringing pilot meets the cost of the course to the provider; none of the cost goes to the CAA. In fact 20% of the course costs amounts to VAT and goes to HM Government.

As for the rest of the post, for "would likely" read "could result in" and for "For many it will be letter through the door, and come and do a course. For more serious it will be suspension of licence straight away" read the missing words 'authors own words'.
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557373
If none of the money goes to the CAA then who is the "provider" of the course who collects it?

I'm probably being dim and naive but given that (unlike speeding) virtually all infringements are mistakes and not deliberate, how do you "train" people not to infringe (i.e. make mistakes) other than by stating the bleedin' obvious, i.e;

"See that lump of controlled airspace there on the chart?"

"Err....yes,"

"WELL DONT ENTER IT WITHOUT PERMISSION!"

End of Course....?

Or should this be retitled "Navigation Course"
dublinpilot, Bobcro liked this
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557377
ratman wrote:it there to help pilots learn.


But the OP has already learnt the lesson about entering an ATZ within a MATZ.

This seems like punishment to me rather than learning.

Given that in the case of most infringements (though not in this case) it's the pilot being not entirely sure of their position while not using a VFR airspace warning GPS, rather than a course it would be better that the pilot spend the £200 on a tablet and software.
Talkdownman, flybymike, Bathman and 4 others liked this
#1557398
I wonder how many airline pilots have been asked to attend for a level burst, or is this exclusively a GA punishment?


I've wondered that too. It has to be a fair a just system, and I would like to be satisfied that all infringements are treated the same. Also, are these infringements properly and impartially investigated, or is punitive action initiated on the word of the MOR reporter. I've seen an MOR report on an alleged infringer this week that makes no sense at all.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 28